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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 25, 2022 8:08:30 GMT -6
Just wondering if my taste just isn’t the same as others or maybe there’s some de rigueur frowny-face-for-radio eq club that I haven’t been invited to…or maybe I just don’t know what I’m doing (that’s always a possibility.)
Here’s the long story short. I’ve been working on a project I’m producing and mixing. We’ve concentrated on one song first mostly - tracking vocals and harms, I’ve been mixing as we go. I will send this off for a pro for mastering, but I always use Ozone at the end of my mastering chain for faux mastering. To bring up levels and use Tonal Balance to make sure it’s within the custom range that I have found works well.
I sent a mix for the client to have for the night - still have work to do, but it’s more than a rough - and the next day he says “that’s not a mix right? You haven’t started mixing…”
That’s fun. He brought up a specific song that he was comparing it to (in a big truck with a big consumer sub) and we A/B’d. (we AB’d in my studio) This major label mix was more mid pushed, less bottom, maybe more top top…In comparison, I thought it sounded well, mid-pushed and lacking bottom. Sound stage might be bigger. It’s louder…but I attribute a lot of that to professional mastering.
Anyway - it just shook my confidence. I know my mixing doesn’t suck. I very, very rarely have people ask for “more/less bottom” or “pull the mids down.” But I’m just wondering if the club hasn’t told me that there’s some mix eq curve for radio. This guy has good taste so maybe there’s something to learn here. Am I making any sense?
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Post by gwlee7 on Jun 25, 2022 8:51:08 GMT -6
Not to blow smoke up your ass but your mixing DOES NOT suck. The three songs you have done for me sound amazing on everything. Iphone/ipad speakers, my car(s), my cheap headphones, my good headphones, ear buds, my Pelonis 4288s. They sound great on everything that everyone I talk to who have heard them uses as well.
So, trust yourself John. You know what you are doing. We all have things to learn but that doesn’t mean you don’t know what you are doing.
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Post by bossanova on Jun 25, 2022 9:14:50 GMT -6
Hey John... I'm working on a mix for someone right now and I'm fighting the same battle of "make it sound like a mastered reference" vs getting it to where it sounds good to me without heavy mix bus processing and leaving it to the ME's better monitoring and taste to do the rest.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2022 9:17:35 GMT -6
They push the mids for more volume now. Fat bass takes more headroom and can’t be slammed by a limiter without fuzzing.
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Post by trakworxmastering on Jun 25, 2022 9:22:50 GMT -6
Go online and listen to a selection of major releases in just about any genre. You'll find some mid-pushed, some bottom-pushed, some top-pushed and some evenly balanced. Sounds like your client likes mid-pushed beyond where your first instincts led you. That may make for some cognitive dissonance when mixing, but maybe you'll find a way to please him and yourself, and that'll be a learning opportunity. You could also ask him for more examples of other songs he likes, as that one could be an anomaly.
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Post by trakworxmastering on Jun 25, 2022 9:30:49 GMT -6
They push the mids for more volume now. Fat bass takes more headroom and can’t be slammed by a limiter without fuzzing. Yes it can. But you're right that it's partly about sounding loud, and that has more to do with the Fletcher Munson curve than with limiters, and it's been happening since long before brickwall limiters were a thing. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 25, 2022 9:52:22 GMT -6
Go online and listen to a selection of major releases in just about any genre. You'll find some mid-pushed, some bottom-pushed, some top-pushed and some evenly balanced. Sounds like your client likes mid-pushed beyond where your first instincts led you. That may make for some cognitive dissonance when mixing, but maybe you'll find a way to please him and yourself, and that'll be a learning opportunity. You could also ask him for more examples of other songs he likes, as that one could be an anomaly. Great point about going against instinct/cognitive dissonance. I wish So - as a mastering guy, how much color/shaping eq do you do for people? I’ve always told mastering guys that I trust they’re going to have better equipment/ears/rooms than I do, so master it how you think it should sound and how it would sound best in their ears/eyes. Occasionally I’ll ask for something like “can you multi-band 3khz a tiny bit.” But never anything major. Do you ever have people say “I want it to sound like X song? I mean - how do you know whether that’s the mix or the mastering? Does it matter? |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 25, 2022 9:56:37 GMT -6
I also wondered about my taste level. I guess that’s personal, but maybe I’m the odd duck that doesn’t like the broad 800hz push thing.
This guy actually pulled up a preset in Ozone that went against my instincts - but damn if it didn’t sound good. Could be a really good learning lesson. It was kind of embarrassing, honestly…because I could hear that it was closer to the other mix. Just wondering if I need to re-evaluate my taste buds lol.
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Post by trakworxmastering on Jun 25, 2022 10:13:00 GMT -6
Go online and listen to a selection of major releases in just about any genre. You'll find some mid-pushed, some bottom-pushed, some top-pushed and some evenly balanced. Sounds like your client likes mid-pushed beyond where your first instincts led you. That may make for some cognitive dissonance when mixing, but maybe you'll find a way to please him and yourself, and that'll be a learning opportunity. You could also ask him for more examples of other songs he likes, as that one could be an anomaly. Great point about going against instinct/cognitive dissonance. I wish So - as a mastering guy, how much color/shaping eq do you do for people? I’ve always told mastering guys that I trust they’re going to have better equipment/ears/rooms than I do, so master it how you think it should sound and how it would sound best in their ears/eyes. Occasionally I’ll ask for something like “can you multi-band 3khz a tiny bit.” But never anything major. Do you ever have people say “I want it to sound like X song? I mean - how do you know whether that’s the mix or the mastering? Does it matter? I do a lot of shaping when called for, and very little when not called for. Def not afraid to dig in when I know I can do some good. Always willing to revise if it's not what they wanted. Yes, it all matters. It's not just the mix or the master. It's the instruments used, the arrangement, the recording quality. Everything. Some people ask to sound like a ref track. It's pretty easy to hear if their mix is able to sound like their ref track. Sometimes it takes some explaining of what mastering is and is not, as inexperienced clients often expect mixing moves in mastering. Or miracles. |
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Post by trakworxmastering on Jun 25, 2022 10:15:09 GMT -6
Just wondering if I need to re-evaluate my taste buds lol. More like adding new colors to your palette I think. |
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Post by notneeson on Jun 25, 2022 10:51:08 GMT -6
I also wondered about my taste level. I guess that’s personal, but maybe I’m the odd duck that doesn’t like the broad 800hz push thing. This guy actually pulled up a preset in Ozone that went against my instincts - but damn if it didn’t sound good. Could be a really good learning lesson. It was kind of embarrassing, honestly…because I could hear that it was closer to the other mix. Just wondering if I need to re-evaluate my taste buds lol. I think it's double edged sword: you have experience and perspective and work from a place of confidence. But, so do other people and sometimes hearing things through their ears (even kinda green artists sometimes) can make you go: "how did I miss that?" That's my experience anyway. |
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Post by tkaitkai on Jun 25, 2022 13:58:55 GMT -6
Sounds like a personal taste thing to me. I’ve had to learn this with my own work — I’m very much the person who hears a pro mix and goes, “I want to sound like that.”
Of course, I always end up putting my own spin on it, and it comes out sounding like me rather than the reference. This used to seriously bum me out, but at a certain point, I realized there are a million ways to make a song sound good, and just because it doesn’t sound identical to X, Y, or Z hit song doesn’t mean it sounds bad.
And to add onto what everyone else has said, your mixes are definitely killer. Maybe your client does have a good set of ears, but so do you. I wouldn’t take it to heart.
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Post by thehightenor on Jun 25, 2022 14:10:25 GMT -6
My observation is there is literally no standard anymore.
You made a personal preference, your client didn't like it he asked for something different.
I hear albums by famous artists and I think yuk - other I think wow.
At one time, multi-tack tape to 2 track tape to vinyl records and analogue radio demanded a standard.
Now with digital everything from source to delivery .... the world is your oyster and if your mixing for money it has to be your clients oyster too :-)
I honestly prefer my own mixing to most records I hear today - but I only have to please myself!
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Post by christopher on Jun 25, 2022 14:43:28 GMT -6
Ignore their comments, they don’t know. You are way more skilled at hearing stuff than them. It very well could be mastering, and why a setting on Ozone changed things?
I always look up discogs for the mixer/ mastering engineer, check out their other work and try to see if it’s mixing or mastering guy who is similar. A couple guys out there with big time success I just don’t enjoy anything they’ve done, so it’s hard for me to work toward something I don’t like
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Post by svart on Jun 25, 2022 17:11:41 GMT -6
Consider this.. I listen back to mixes that I did years ago and think "WTF" about how scooped they are and realize that I mix with a lot more mids now, to what I think is very bright and midrangey.
And I recently compared a pro mix to one of my own very, very meticulously.
The pro mix was even more mid pushed than mine but I had never noticed it before.
I then pushed the mids in my mix to the same levels and it sounded weird, but I kept listening and it became "normal" to me. It now sounds fine when I listen.
I believe it's a case of getting used to our own sound. It's "normal" to us. It fits our ear response and our desires.
But others will have different mixes and styles they've come to recognize as "normal".
It's more likely they just have a different sound they hear in their head than you do rather than your skills falling short.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 25, 2022 18:37:43 GMT -6
Here’s an issue I run into a good bit. I track a lot in the same studio, so when I get done tracking I bring it home and have a template I pull the stuff into…because it’s the same drum setup, same acoustics etc. So when I send them the first rough the day-of, they’re not hearing a board mix. Which usually sounds pretty shitty. I started doing that because one or two newbie guys didn’t understand what a rough board mix was. So - most of my time is spent tweaking…maybe different comp here on the drum bus, levels, effects…but they’re hearing something that is going to be halfish done already. Maybe I need to start sending shitty board mixes so they can hear the difference.
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Post by bgrotto on Jun 25, 2022 19:00:47 GMT -6
I've been finding myself pushing the mids up a LOT in my recent work. I don't think it's necessarily in response to any specific trends, though (because I don't really listen to new music...or even old music at this point because I've been working so much and can't find time to listen for leisure 🤣🤦🏻♂️). I'm just finding I can get a fuller, louder, more detailed presentation if I really get the mids pushing hard, and the bottom and top kinda take care of themselves in a weird way.
Then again, this is all subject to change at any time when i decide i suck, hate everything I'm doing, and retool my whole workflow, as i am wont to do every year and change 🤣😭
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Post by wiz on Jun 25, 2022 19:18:40 GMT -6
When you guys say mids….what frequency range are you referring too?
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 25, 2022 19:22:20 GMT -6
When you guys say mids….what frequency range are you referring too? 500-900 |
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Post by svart on Jun 25, 2022 19:35:57 GMT -6
Here’s an issue I run into a good bit. I track a lot in the same studio, so when I get done tracking I bring it home and have a template I pull the stuff into…because it’s the same drum setup, same acoustics etc. So when I send them the first rough the day-of, they’re not hearing a board mix. Which usually sounds pretty shitty. I started doing that because one or two newbie guys didn’t understand what a rough board mix was. So - most of my time is spent tweaking…maybe different comp here on the drum bus, levels, effects…but they’re hearing something that is going to be halfish done already. Maybe I need to start sending shitty board mixes so they can hear the difference. That won't work. They always expect it to sound great. If it doesn't, they'll immediately lose faith. I know from experience. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2022 19:52:49 GMT -6
When you guys say mids….what frequency range are you referring too? 500-900 I thought you were talking about like 1-3khz haha. Not boxy territory. What kind of commercial mix? What commercial mix? PM? That's a problematic frequency range where there can be all kinds of boxiness issues. For all you know, the commercial mix uses samples that are barely eqed or they have been smashed down and distorted to hell. Or the drums on the commercial mix are just boxy if you pay close attention to them. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 25, 2022 20:40:35 GMT -6
I thought you were talking about like 1-3khz haha. Not boxy territory. What kind of commercial mix? What commercial mix? PM? That's a problematic frequency range where there can be all kinds of boxiness issues. For all you know, the commercial mix uses samples that are barely eqed or they have been smashed down and distorted to hell. Or the drums on the commercial mix are just boxy if you pay close attention to them. I agree. I think a lot of country stuff sounds boxy. I can’t imagine pushing 1-3khz. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 25, 2022 20:41:57 GMT -6
Here’s an issue I run into a good bit. I track a lot in the same studio, so when I get done tracking I bring it home and have a template I pull the stuff into…because it’s the same drum setup, same acoustics etc. So when I send them the first rough the day-of, they’re not hearing a board mix. Which usually sounds pretty shitty. I started doing that because one or two newbie guys didn’t understand what a rough board mix was. So - most of my time is spent tweaking…maybe different comp here on the drum bus, levels, effects…but they’re hearing something that is going to be halfish done already. Maybe I need to start sending shitty board mixes so they can hear the difference. That won't work. They always expect it to sound great. If it doesn't, they'll immediately lose faith. I know from experience. It’s a conundrum. |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Jun 25, 2022 20:53:17 GMT -6
I just listened to the TapeOp podcast interview with Andrew Scheps and he was saying how awful a job mixing is. You can do a completely competent to great mix, and on a whim the client can just say they don’t like it, and because it’s all subjective, they are right and you are right. But, in the end you’ve got to make the client happy. And if Andrew has to deal with being frustrated, I’m sure the rest of us have to deal with it sometimes too.
Your mixes sound good John, real good. Be proud of it and understand that others can hear things different - and that’s okay. It’s our job to make them happy while keeping the integrity of the mix where we hear it. Not an easy job...
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Post by tkaitkai on Jun 25, 2022 21:38:09 GMT -6
I just listened to the TapeOp podcast interview with Andrew Scheps and he was saying how awful a job mixing is. You can do a completely competent to great mix, and on a whim the client can just say they don’t like it, and because it’s all subjective, they are right and you are right. But, in the end you’ve got to make the client happy. And if Andrew has to deal with being frustrated, I’m sure the rest of us have to deal with it sometimes too. Your mixes sound good John, real good. Be proud of it and understand that others can hear things different - and that’s okay. It’s our job to make them happy while keeping the integrity of the mix where we hear it. Not an easy job... This. Musicians truly are the worst (takes one to know one, of course). Always insanely nitpicky and emotionally attached to the goofiest shit. Like dude, I promise you that snare sample is not as important as you think it is, and no one is ever going to care about that guitar lick that’s buried 30dB down in the second verse. Of course, artistic differences come with the territory and are to be expected, but there’s a way to be diplomatic about it and manage expectations. End of the day, the song is either awesome or it isn’t, and if it’s awesome, just fuckin’ leave it alone! I’ve had people completely bail on otherwise amazing projects over the most insignificant minutiae. Pure egoism and totally infuriating. Not that John is going through this or anything, it sounds like his client is maybe a little more easygoing. |
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