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Post by sean on Jun 26, 2022 0:27:01 GMT -6
Everyone hears things differently, or rather wants to hear different things out of different sources. With acoustic music usually everyone wants their instrument to be warmer/boomier (guitar players want to hear the low E string, mandolin players want to hear the “beef” or “woof”, fiddle players don’t want to hear that much top end, banjo players want it too loud) and you have to find that compromise because not everything can have a bunch of 100 to 300Hz that might sound great when the instrument is solo’d, but a mess in context. With pop/rock music, it’s always trying to be more “in your face” or “jumping out of the speakers” which means different things to different people
And in a lot of cases I send people what I consider a 80% done mix and sometimes they love it, and other times it gets you the notes you need to get them happy. And when you get those snide comments try not to let it bother you, because usually you aren’t as far away as you think you just aren’t featuring some element of the songs the artist values more than you
Also, I don’t know about this case, but the less talent/less budget people have can often equal unrealistic expectations of what their music can sound like. The studio isn’t what takes you from playing a pizza parlor to an arena
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Post by smashlord on Jun 26, 2022 0:28:58 GMT -6
I feel the contemporary thing in rock and pop these days is to put the kick and bass more in the low mids and aggressively high pass keys, guitars, or whatever else lives in the midrange/side channels so they can be cranked (emphasizing that 500-900 area). The result being that 1. Its loud 2. The "lowend" translates well to small speakers.
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Post by nomatic on Jun 26, 2022 6:52:10 GMT -6
Things are being bullhorned as many have talked about to emphasize the most active range for perceived volume under heavy limiting. It sound both cool and terrible if you like broad and warm mixes. I do this kind of process if the client has something going up against other singles in a focus group.
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Post by bgrotto on Jun 26, 2022 7:16:15 GMT -6
I just listened to the TapeOp podcast interview with Andrew Scheps and he was saying how awful a job mixing is. You can do a completely competent to great mix, and on a whim the client can just say they don’t like it, and because it’s all subjective, they are right and you are right. But, in the end you’ve got to make the client happy. And if Andrew has to deal with being frustrated, I’m sure the rest of us have to deal with it sometimes too. Your mixes sound good John, real good. Be proud of it and understand that others can hear things different - and that’s okay. It’s our job to make them happy while keeping the integrity of the mix where we hear it. Not an easy job... There IS bright side to this though.... Mediocre mixers like me can still find enough work to pay the bills, and can still boast a roster of happy clients!🤣 Vive le difference!🤣
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Post by smashlord on Jun 26, 2022 11:28:26 GMT -6
There IS bright side to this though.... Mediocre mixers like me can still find enough work to pay the bills, and can still boast a roster of happy clients!🤣 Vive le difference!🤣 Amen. Your work is great, though! Really dug that KSE side project you did (band name is escaping me at the moment).
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,011
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Post by ericn on Jun 26, 2022 12:02:48 GMT -6
Since I’m the weird guy on this one who after living in the world of live and having an RTA sitting next to me giving me a graphicical representation of the mix in terms of frequency I simply carried this over to the studio. I seldom EQ an overall mix, but I will pay attention to how my mix is spread out. If the mastering engineer feels it needs EQ fine, he can do it.
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Post by christopher on Jun 26, 2022 12:18:17 GMT -6
Here’s an issue I run into a good bit. I track a lot in the same studio, so when I get done tracking I bring it home and have a template I pull the stuff into…because it’s the same drum setup, same acoustics etc. So when I send them the first rough the day-of, they’re not hearing a board mix. Which usually sounds pretty shitty. I started doing that because one or two newbie guys didn’t understand what a rough board mix was. So - most of my time is spent tweaking…maybe different comp here on the drum bus, levels, effects…but they’re hearing something that is going to be halfish done already. Maybe I need to start sending shitty board mixes so they can hear the difference. This is my issue as well, and I have to rant! Last project I did went really smooth according to plan: track until everything is recorded well, good mics and a great live room, finally rent some time to mix at a great studio. I got some quotes for a few neve and SSL studios, everything was going great, exactly to plan! Well the client was studying the roughs for so many weeks that he couldn’t handle any changes to mix. It was time to mix and anything new was broken to him and he decided it’s not worth renting time to mix. I just ran everything through a mastering and chain gave up. I’m still really disappointed.
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Post by bigbone on Jun 26, 2022 14:03:16 GMT -6
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Post by jmoose on Jun 26, 2022 14:15:28 GMT -6
I also wondered about my taste level. I guess that’s personal, but maybe I’m the odd duck that doesn’t like the broad 800hz push thing. This guy actually pulled up a preset in Ozone that went against my instincts - but damn if it didn’t sound good. Could be a really good learning lesson. It was kind of embarrassing, honestly…because I could hear that it was closer to the other mix. Just wondering if I need to re-evaluate my taste buds lol. While this could be a learning opportunity there's also a possibility, based on personal experiences that if someone is really hearing things that go against my instincts... maybe I need to put my ego aside and say I'm not the guy. Maybe I shouldn't be mixing this one. I'm sure anyone who's done this long enough has had the experience of mixing an album at least three times even though it didn't really need it. Maybe we even got fired? It happens. Passing the hat on mixing can be a deflating, yet also extremely liberating decision. Its a hit to my ego to think that for whatever reasons... I just couldn't get this one across the finish line. And now we've probably gotta find some extra coin for the mix guy because it probably wasn't in the original budget. And that sucks too. But to remove yourself as "mix guy" and take the position of the artist where all you can do is listen and comment? Can be gloriously relieving. No ability to second guess & micromanage every element in the song... Big picture stuff. You either like what comes back or not. The key element here is that your working on the same side as the artist, pushing whoever's mixing towards your common goals. To the initial - overall EQ curve vs mastering? I've been lucky to work with more or less the same handful of mastering cats over many years and so... have reached the point where most times they say "I barely touched it" - what goes in is pretty much what comes back unless there's a need for a gross adjustment to the top or bottom end. Which is rare. And so my own "house curve" if I feel the need to do some faux mastering before sending mixes? Its +1dB at 8kHz very, very wide and -1dB at 200Hz sorta wide. Add some brickwall level and that's usually enough for someone to stick things in a playlist for comparison without getting slaughtered... and also tame enough that I'm not starting a competition with mastering. With the producer hat on all you can do is talk to the artist and be honest... 80% of the gig is aligning expectations. Better to work those out early, or if things aren't working... realize that and hit the reset button before everyone starts to get frustrated.
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Jun 26, 2022 18:35:36 GMT -6
Here’s an issue I run into a good bit. I track a lot in the same studio, so when I get done tracking I bring it home and have a template I pull the stuff into…because it’s the same drum setup, same acoustics etc. So when I send them the first rough the day-of, they’re not hearing a board mix. Which usually sounds pretty shitty. I started doing that because one or two newbie guys didn’t understand what a rough board mix was. So - most of my time is spent tweaking…maybe different comp here on the drum bus, levels, effects…but they’re hearing something that is going to be halfish done already. Maybe I need to start sending shitty board mixes so they can hear the difference. This is my issue as well, and I have to rant! Last project I did went really smooth according to plan: track until everything is recorded well, good mics and a great live room, finally rent some time to mix at a great studio. I got some quotes for a few neve and SSL studios, everything was going great, exactly to plan! Well the client was studying the roughs for so many weeks that he couldn’t handle any changes to mix. It was time to mix and anything new was broken to him and he decided it’s not worth renting time to mix. I just ran everything through a mastering and chain gave up. I’m still really disappointed. That is a tough one. But a good justification of what you did during tracking. That attachment though is so real.
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Post by bgrotto on Jun 26, 2022 21:26:49 GMT -6
There IS bright side to this though.... Mediocre mixers like me can still find enough work to pay the bills, and can still boast a roster of happy clients!🤣 Vive le difference!🤣 Amen. Your work is great, though! Really dug that KSE side project you did (band name is escaping me at the moment). Aw thanks! I really appreciate that. The band is Death Ray Vision, and they're coming in next week to start tracking a new one
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 26, 2022 21:40:18 GMT -6
I also wondered about my taste level. I guess that’s personal, but maybe I’m the odd duck that doesn’t like the broad 800hz push thing. This guy actually pulled up a preset in Ozone that went against my instincts - but damn if it didn’t sound good. Could be a really good learning lesson. It was kind of embarrassing, honestly…because I could hear that it was closer to the other mix. Just wondering if I need to re-evaluate my taste buds lol. While this could be a learning opportunity there's also a possibility, based on personal experiences that if someone is really hearing things that go against my instincts... maybe I need to put my ego aside and say I'm not the guy. Maybe I shouldn't be mixing this one. I'm sure anyone who's done this long enough has had the experience of mixing an album at least three times even though it didn't really need it. Maybe we even got fired? It happens. Passing the hat on mixing can be a deflating, yet also extremely liberating decision. Its a hit to my ego to think that for whatever reasons... I just couldn't get this one across the finish line. And now we've probably gotta find some extra coin for the mix guy because it probably wasn't in the original budget. And that sucks too. But to remove yourself as "mix guy" and take the position of the artist where all you can do is listen and comment? Can be gloriously relieving. No ability to second guess & micromanage every element in the song... Big picture stuff. You either like what comes back or not. The key element here is that your working on the same side as the artist, pushing whoever's mixing towards your common goals. To the initial - overall EQ curve vs mastering? I've been lucky to work with more or less the same handful of mastering cats over many years and so... have reached the point where most times they say "I barely touched it" - what goes in is pretty much what comes back unless there's a need for a gross adjustment to the top or bottom end. Which is rare. And so my own "house curve" if I feel the need to do some faux mastering before sending mixes? Its +1dB at 8kHz very, very wide and -1dB at 200Hz sorta wide. Add some brickwall level and that's usually enough for someone to stick things in a playlist for comparison without getting slaughtered... and also tame enough that I'm not starting a competition with mastering. With the producer hat on all you can do is talk to the artist and be honest... 80% of the gig is aligning expectations. Better to work those out early, or if things aren't working... realize that and hit the reset button before everyone starts to get frustrated. Hey - if he wants someone else to mix it, that’s fine, but he’s gonna pay me like I mixed it.
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Post by schmalzy on Jun 26, 2022 22:45:30 GMT -6
I hear a lot of really high-end mixers doing stuff I really love. Older. Newer. There are some really spectacular-sounding records happening every month of every year since the beginning of recorded sounds.
I hear the same really high-end mixers doing stuff I hate. Older. Newer. There are some really awful-sounding records happening every month of every year since the beginning of recorded sounds.
Some of them are crazy low end-y. Some of them are pushed around 1.5kHz. Some of them are pushed around 5kHz. Some are pushed in the 800hz area. Some are completely neutered in the lows. Some are really scooped and cleaned out around 300hz. Some are bright enough to rip your ears off. Others are brighter still and will rip your ears off, stitch 'em back on, and come around to rip 'em off again.
Sometimes the choices make a lot of emotional sense. A song that's especially aggressive with an emphasis on aggressive frequencies? Makes sense. A song about loneliness that is really "too" dark? Makes sense.
Sometimes the choices don't make sense. Do I think one of the best chaotic metalcore records in recent memory should sound like the whole thing was mastered to sound perfect then had a high shelf added to push an extra 3db of everything over 2.5kHz? Nope. Is it what the artist and/or producer wanted? Apparently! They signed off on it didn't they?
I think you're probably used to a specific sort of sound and that's the way your favorite records sound. The artist also has favorite records that have certain sounds. You said it yourself; the artist clicked a different EQ preset and it sounded different AND good (better?). These things can be imagined in a bunch of different ways and many of those notably different ways can be notably good.
Maybe integrating a steady stream of different-sounding music into your listening diet is a good idea. It'll expose you to all these expertly done mixes/masters that sound killer in all the different ways they can sound awesome. Just like when distorted guitars started to be a sonic tool: some people hated that sound and then the people that listened to it learned to accept and appreciate it as good over time. Hell, Germans typically are described as angry-sounding to English-only speakers until they're exposed enough to German-language speech that they can start to hear the differences and the details.
Trust yourself; you've done this a long time. Trust your artists; they are the experts in their art. Listen to their references and assume the references are good examples of things the artist loves. Collaborate and work to deliver a record the artist loves.
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Post by thehightenor on Jun 27, 2022 1:59:26 GMT -6
When you guys say mids….what frequency range are you referring too? 500-900 Being low mids, that’s a fairly wide range. I’ll often cut kicks around 500 to take out any boxiness but boost bass a bit around 800 to help it speak a bit better for systems with smaller speakers and everyday earbuds. So for me that would be a tricky area for an over all EQ change. On the whole the low mids are where my mixes can become congested and muddy so I work hardest in this area - especially vocals around 220. But hey I’m sure you know it’s a balance of yin and yan …. too many cuts in the low mids and the souls gone to much and it’s mud city …. drives me crazy sometimes
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 27, 2022 8:16:54 GMT -6
I mix a song to sound its best, period. I don't compensate for garbage Apple earbuds, iPhone speakers, computers, etc. Anyone listening on that shit doesn't care much about sound anyway, it's content driven.
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Post by thehightenor on Jun 27, 2022 12:58:02 GMT -6
I mix a song to sound its best, period. I don't compensate for garbage Apple earbuds, iPhone speakers, computers, etc. Anyone listening on that shit doesn't care much about sound anyway, it's content driven. I definitely mix for the best sound I can achieve .... but I make sure it translates across a range of listening mediums - it often only takes a small tweak here and there and you have a very happy balance. It's why, although I have ATC 25's, I mix 50% of the time of some little Sony speakers (Charles Dye got me into) and a mono 5C Auratone. Sculpting the low mids is so critical and getting clarity on small speakers (for example an Alexa, LA hairdressers ceiling speakers ) .... well it's something I value in my mixes. So I'm always very happy how well my mixes translate to a wide range of playback mediums and devices. It's worked well for me as an approach - but we all make music in very different genres and and often a very different target audience, so I completely understand your approach and what you're saying.
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Post by jmoose on Jun 27, 2022 14:17:52 GMT -6
Hey - if he wants someone else to mix it, that’s fine, but he’s gonna pay me like I mixed it. Right but I'm not asking what the artist wants... I'm asking what YOU want. Your the producer yeah? One thing I'm pretty sure you want is a "successful" album... however we define that. Your the producer, you should be steering the ship and presenting options towards that goal. Assume the artist either doesn't know or can't explain what they want. Couple things you've said remind me of an album many years where I mixed every song at least 2 if not 4 times. Not talking revisions... ground up mixes done months apart. And there's still comments like "yeah that's not it... we like this other thing better" - Somewhere along the way I lost the plot, and the artists confidence and yes indeed that album got mixed by someone else. Years ago I tried to battle my way through those situations. Now I try to be more of a team player and when its obvious that things are probably heading off the rails? The instinct is to try and get in front of whatever's happening and offer alternatives. So now if I've done a round of mixes and we're way off target? I might call my friend John and say hey... can you mix a song for me? I've got an artist who's hunting for something and we're kind of in a pickle. And if they really love your mix then you get the rest of the album and everyone wins, walks away happy. I'd much rather have someone thinking that hey... working with Moose was awesome. He helped us get our songs & great performances down and then man... his friend John came though with some really excellent mixes at the end. What an excellent experience. Alternative is - Ehhh that Moose guy was ok. We played well in the studio but he didn't really get what we were going for and kinda clashed on opinions too often. Next time we'll probably work with someone else. As said above the rub with mixing and art in general is that its all very subjective. All someone has to do is say they don't like it and you know... they're totally right. We can't say their opinion is wrong. So when I find that happens a couple times too many in the course of a given project? I'm putting out a call for assistance. Sometimes you really do need a bigger boat. Chief Brody wasn't exactly wrong about that!
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 27, 2022 15:13:21 GMT -6
Hey - if he wants someone else to mix it, that’s fine, but he’s gonna pay me like I mixed it. Right but I'm not asking what the artist wants... I'm asking what YOU want. Your the producer yeah? One thing I'm pretty sure you want is a "successful" album... however we define that. Your the producer, you should be steering the ship and presenting options towards that goal. Assume the artist either doesn't know or can't explain what they want. Couple things you've said remind me of an album many years where I mixed every song at least 2 if not 4 times. Not talking revisions... ground up mixes done months apart. And there's still comments like "yeah that's not it... we like this other thing better" - Somewhere along the way I lost the plot, and the artists confidence and yes indeed that album got mixed by someone else. Years ago I tried to battle my way through those situations. Now I try to be more of a team player and when its obvious that things are probably heading off the rails? The instinct is to try and get in front of whatever's happening and offer alternatives. So now if I've done a round of mixes and we're way off target? I might call my friend John and say hey... can you mix a song for me? I've got an artist who's hunting for something and we're kind of in a pickle. And if they really love your mix then you get the rest of the album and everyone wins, walks away happy. I'd much rather have someone thinking that hey... working with Moose was awesome. He helped us get our songs & great performances down and then man... his friend John came though with some really excellent mixes at the end. What an excellent experience. Alternative is - Ehhh that Moose guy was ok. We played well in the studio but he didn't really get what we were going for and kinda clashed on opinions too often. Next time we'll probably work with someone else. As said above the rub with mixing and art in general is that its all very subjective. All someone has to do is say they don't like it and you know... they're totally right. We can't say their opinion is wrong. So when I find that happens a couple times too many in the course of a given project? I'm putting out a call for assistance. Sometimes you really do need a bigger boat. Chief Brody wasn't exactly wrong about that! I get it. I’m not going to dance for anybody. Believe me, I’ve been in this business for over two decades. My question was whether there was something to learn from it. The only place I’m going to be involved with a hit song is through songwriting. This isn’t a major label project ~ so any back end would be slim to none most likely.
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Post by thecolourfulway on Jun 27, 2022 16:00:29 GMT -6
Just want to chime in to say how much I'm enjoying this thread. It's also interesting that several people have mentioned dealing with this lately. I just recently finished some mixes where I felt they were far too scooped, went back and added quite a lot of mids at the individual instrument level, and wound up with something that sounded much better to me...it was an interesting learning experience. I'm not a professional mixer, and my aesthetics are very specific and not modern, but I'm enjoying this discussion as it's timely for something I've been hearing lately. Also would agree the spectrum of "professional" mixes in any genre, in any decade, is very broad indeed.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 27, 2022 19:44:49 GMT -6
Honestly, I learned something from the guy - just from the preset he pulled up. I never would have used one called “Electronic Clarity,” but the eq curve at least went against my instincts but sounded good.
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Post by ml on Jun 28, 2022 6:21:27 GMT -6
Another option which is no slight against yours or anyone else's mixing chops: Find the guy that mixed the commercial reference and hire him to mix the song. 1. The client will be pleased that you got the sound they wanted 2. You now have an open dialogue with the mixer and can ask questions and learn a few tricks from a sought after colleague. Maybe you can even do an attended session and sit in and peek over his shoulder. I would love to do that!
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Post by thehightenor on Jun 28, 2022 6:49:26 GMT -6
Honestly, I learned something from the guy - just from the preset he pulled up. I never would have used one called “Electronic Clarity,” but the eq curve at least went against my instincts but sounded good. There's weird sh*t that goes on with this stuff sometimes. I've often thought about the key a piece is in (let's say E as an example) - and how you can look at the lowest frequency for example low E is about 42Hz and then multiples of that (84, 168 etc) as you go through it's octaves and how if I cut or boost at any of those frequencies as I go into low mids- mids - uppers etc that I'll be exposing more harmonics or supporting more fundamentals. I've messed a bit with this stuff - I really should look more into it - I'm sure it explains why some EQ's moves/ curves work when I think they're not going to?
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Post by svart on Jun 28, 2022 8:15:17 GMT -6
I'm going to own up to having bought into some of those online mixing classes like URM/Nail the Mix. I figure what the hell, it's great to see others work, especially if I like the tunes they worked on. I gotta say, I learned a lot for sure. Biggest thing was being able to hear the raw tracks and the progression of how they change as the mix is built. Tracks were a lot less "exciting" and a lot more "even" than ones I track, which explains why I always have trouble getting a mix together with my tracks without tons of carving and why I have a lot easier time working with other's supplied tracks. Overall everything was much more mid-centric and it took a while to get used to it.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 28, 2022 10:34:01 GMT -6
Another option which is no slight against yours or anyone else's mixing chops: Find the guy that mixed the commercial reference and hire him to mix the song. 1. The client will be pleased that you got the sound they wanted 2. You now have an open dialogue with the mixer and can ask questions and learn a few tricks from a sought after colleague. Maybe you can even do an attended session and sit in and peek over his shoulder. I would love to do that! If it were a bigger budget, that would be fine. But my justification for my cost is being the built in mixer. When you’re tracking 3 songs in three hours, there’s not a ton of “producing” that is done. I don’t have time to say “hey guys, let’s try going to the 6 here and dropping the breakdown” blah blah. Or there’s no getting snare sounds for three hours. There’s no cartage. There’s no “let’s try that with the Matchless and Gretsch. Know what I mean? It’s an efficient knowing the direction you want and banging it out. I honestly think in these situations, my BIGGEST job as producer is casting. Hiring the right guys. There’s no budget for experimentation really. So, my mixing is part of the value they’re getting. That make sense?
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 28, 2022 10:41:21 GMT -6
Oh - plus…I’m not paying for everything. They are. Makes it more troublesome to make executive creative decisions. When I am paying for an artist, I’m going to tel them how it’s going to sound. But I rarely believe in something enough to put my own money into it.
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