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Post by nick8801 on Feb 8, 2022 8:06:20 GMT -6
Have the ATC SCM12's....absolutely love the transparency and detail I get. Balancing tracks is a breeze, and it's really easy to hear the difference in the quality of a variety of productions. My only issue is the low end. Mixing bass is a bit of a guessing game depending on the style of music. If I'm working with deep samples, or electronic elements it can get a little confusing. Even more modern rock productions can get a little tricky. I'm always referencing on headphones or checking mixes in the car which I kind of hate doing at this stage in the game. I also feel like sometimes I end up pushing my output further than I would like in order get some response in the low end. Mostly this happens during tracking if I'm trying to get some excitement when producing a track. My room is treated about as well as I can for a "bedroom" style studio. Plenty of trapping and I use Sonarworks for the extra bit I need to keep things even. So I've been seriously considering adding a sub to the mix. My room is not large. I forget the exact measurements, maybe 10x12 or so. I used to have some bigger EVE's in there and the bass got a little out of control in relation to the mids and highs. I'm thinking that a smaller sub set very lightly would fill in that bottom octave I'm missing and perhaps take the load off the ATC's a bit which might open up even more detail in the mids/highs. What do you guys think? I don't want to spend a ton here and I definitely don't need some giant powerful sub rattling my entire house, just that little extra bit of oomf down at the bottom. I would like one with a remote or footswitch so I can easily take it out of the mix if I'm working late at night. I'd also like easy to access controls so I don't need to crawl around under the desk while I'm making adjustments. The ADAM subs seem to check that box. They have a SUB 7 for like 800 bucks. I would kind of prefer something even cheaper like the Yamaha, but that has no remote. Also curious about placement when I get this thing. Do you place them centered under the desk? I don't have a corner available as my corners all have traps that stick out. Any thoughts/advice/suggestions here would be appreciated! Always thankful for the knowledge base of all the members here. Thanks in advance.
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Feb 8, 2022 9:37:50 GMT -6
I've got Barefoot MM45's as my mains and use the KRK 10s. Key is it's on a TC Level Pilot. I use it to verify where the kick and bass are sitting together and levels of both. I rarely have it on otherwise as the bass response is good in here.
Definitely an area where you don't have to spend a lot of money to get something useful going.
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Post by nick8801 on Feb 8, 2022 9:39:53 GMT -6
I've got Barefoot MM45's as my mains and use the KRK 10s. Key is it's on a TC Level Pilot. I use it to verify where the kick and bass are sitting together and levels of both. I rarely have it on otherwise as the bass response is good in here. Definitely an area where you don't have to spend a lot of money to get something useful going. That's what I'm thinking. Just a little something to "help out" down there. |
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Post by nick8801 on Feb 8, 2022 9:58:18 GMT -6
I've got Barefoot MM45's as my mains and use the KRK 10s. Key is it's on a TC Level Pilot. I use it to verify where the kick and bass are sitting together and levels of both. I rarely have it on otherwise as the bass response is good in here. Definitely an area where you don't have to spend a lot of money to get something useful going. Wait, just read your post again....are you using a pair of subs? I definitely don't think I need that in my room. |
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Feb 8, 2022 10:13:19 GMT -6
I've got Barefoot MM45's as my mains and use the KRK 10s. Key is it's on a TC Level Pilot. I use it to verify where the kick and bass are sitting together and levels of both. I rarely have it on otherwise as the bass response is good in here. Definitely an area where you don't have to spend a lot of money to get something useful going. Wait, just read your post again....are you using a pair of subs? I definitely don't think I need that in my room. Just using a single sub. |
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Post by askomiko on Feb 8, 2022 10:22:37 GMT -6
Get one with dsp, makes it so much easier and workable in non-optimal rooms. Genelec, Neumann has it too on some model. Genelec 7350 is the smallest model with dsp.
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Post by bradd on Feb 8, 2022 10:26:57 GMT -6
Last year, I added a pair of SVS SB3000s to go with my ATC SCM20s. One of the best decisions I have ever made. I previously had one large Rhythmik Audio sub. Using two smaller subs, placed under each main has made a huge difference. For the first time, the low end is clear and intelligible. My room also is not particularly large. There's some science behind using two subs that those smarter than I am can explain. I just know that in my situation the difference is dramatic.
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Post by nick8801 on Feb 8, 2022 10:51:35 GMT -6
Last year, I added a pair of SVS SB3000s to go with my ATC SCM20s. One of the best decisions I have ever made. I previously had one large Rhythmik Audio sub. Using two smaller subs, placed under each main has made a huge difference. For the first time, the low end is clear and intelligible. My room also is not particularly large. There's some science behind using two subs that those smarter than I am can explain. I just know that in my situation the difference is dramatic. I've heard that as well. Have to do a little research on the subject. Just don't wanna spend too much money, but I also want to get it right! |
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Post by nick8801 on Feb 8, 2022 10:55:59 GMT -6
www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-there-any-advantage-using-two-subwoofersThat article pretty much sums it up. I really don't even have the space for two subs directly under the speakers, so I think this is a no go for me. Also, it seems that as long as I have my crossover set low enough, I shouldn't have an issue with a shrinking stereo image due to a center sub placement. Good stuff to think about though!
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Post by jmoose on Feb 8, 2022 11:50:27 GMT -6
If I'm working with deep samples, or electronic elements it can get a little confusing. Even more modern rock productions can get a little tricky. I'm always referencing on headphones or checking mixes in the car which I kind of hate doing at this stage in the game. I also feel like sometimes I end up pushing my output further than I would like in order get some response in the low end. Mostly this happens during tracking if I'm trying to get some excitement when producing a track. My room is treated about as well as I can for a "bedroom" style studio. Do you have another set of speakers besides the ATC? Maybe you need something larger for tracking dates? Typically nearfield/bookshelf speakers don't have a lot of LF extension... And have you shot tones on the room? Do you know where the nulls & falloffs are? Subs can do good. They can also kinda screw things up. Placement is a big factor and yeah, stereo subs can be a thing. Contrary to interknot knowledge low end is not completely omnidirectional... it can be steered. But that sorta thing is beyond the physics of a bedroom studio. Just not enough space. KRK makes a sub with a footswitch for bypass. I haven't used it. Last year I did some consulting & acoustic design for a guy who does music for podcasts... IIRC he has Focals and with most of the final treatment in place... (step 1 was building a 2+ foot deep floor to ceiling trap) ... usual nulls aside there was a gradual falloff under 100Hz. The suggestion, if he feels the need was to get a sub and just barely turn it on. Would only fill in the lowest of lows as needed. |
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Post by nick8801 on Feb 8, 2022 12:41:19 GMT -6
If I'm working with deep samples, or electronic elements it can get a little confusing. Even more modern rock productions can get a little tricky. I'm always referencing on headphones or checking mixes in the car which I kind of hate doing at this stage in the game. I also feel like sometimes I end up pushing my output further than I would like in order get some response in the low end. Mostly this happens during tracking if I'm trying to get some excitement when producing a track. My room is treated about as well as I can for a "bedroom" style studio. Do you have another set of speakers besides the ATC? Maybe you need something larger for tracking dates? Typically nearfield/bookshelf speakers don't have a lot of LF extension... And have you shot tones on the room? Do you know where the nulls & falloffs are? Subs can do good. They can also kinda screw things up. Placement is a big factor and yeah, stereo subs can be a thing. Contrary to interknot knowledge low end is not completely omnidirectional... it can be steered. But that sorta thing is beyond the physics of a bedroom studio. Just not enough space. KRK makes a sub with a footswitch for bypass. I haven't used it. Last year I did some consulting & acoustic design for a guy who does music for podcasts... IIRC he has Focals and with most of the final treatment in place... (step 1 was building a 2+ foot deep floor to ceiling trap) ... usual nulls aside there was a gradual falloff under 100Hz. The suggestion, if he feels the need was to get a sub and just barely turn it on. Would only fill in the lowest of lows as needed. Hey man! Yeah, I have definitely shot the room. Did it as part of my acoustic engineering course with John Storyk at Berklee. He helped us all get our rooms as straight as possible considering some of our not so perfect conditions. I have a bunch of traps around the listening area and a thick cloud right above as well. Also have traps in the back corners of the room, as well as a trap on the back wall. The room still isn't perfect, but the nulls are more than manageable. Actually, one of the reasons I went to the ATC's was because my EVE's were causing too many issues even with the treatment. They just overwhelmed the room. The ATC's play really flat and even in the room, but obviously being closed box speakers, they just don't give up that lower octave info. I really just want the sub for tracking and a low end check in mixing that's not headphones. My desk isn't big enough for another set of speakers. I have the ATC's up there and a mono Auratone. I'd love to just be able to throw up a cheap pair of something big for tracking, but it's just not possible. From what I read in that article, the low end stuff that isn't omni comes from harmonics generated from the distortion that most subs produce. That can cause some stereo image issues. I'm sure I can dial it in properly in my room, I just gotta spend some time setting it up. |
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Post by nick8801 on Feb 8, 2022 12:43:01 GMT -6
.....I'll post a picture of the room later....should help you guys get a better idea of what I'm dealing with.
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Post by nick8801 on Feb 8, 2022 15:15:03 GMT -6
Here's the room....well a shot of the desk area anyway. You can see the side wall on the right. The other side wall is about 5 ft to the left of where that wall angles down. It's a weird space, but it's what I have. I'd probably just stick a small sub right under the desk. I know some of that treatment isn't technically large enough to be bass traps, but it all adds up nicely with everything else I have going on in the room. Again, it's kinda what I had when I moved into this place, and after some fine tuning the room actually shoots really well.  |
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Post by nick8801 on Feb 8, 2022 17:07:48 GMT -6
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Post by yewtreemagic on Feb 8, 2022 17:35:59 GMT -6
Have the ATC SCM12's....absolutely love the transparency and detail I get. Balancing tracks is a breeze, and it's really easy to hear the difference in the quality of a variety of productions. My only issue is the low end. Mixing bass is a bit of a guessing game depending on the style of music. If I'm working with deep samples, or electronic elements it can get a little confusing. Even more modern rock productions can get a little tricky. I have the ATC SCM10 Pro's, and although these start to roll off even higher than the SCM12's, I've placed mine close to the front wall to get bass reinforcement. In conjunction with Sonarworks I've now got a measured response that's only 3dB down at 30Hz, as these sealed loudspeaker designs roll off more slowly than ported ones! |
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Post by nick8801 on Feb 8, 2022 18:34:09 GMT -6
Have the ATC SCM12's....absolutely love the transparency and detail I get. Balancing tracks is a breeze, and it's really easy to hear the difference in the quality of a variety of productions. My only issue is the low end. Mixing bass is a bit of a guessing game depending on the style of music. If I'm working with deep samples, or electronic elements it can get a little confusing. Even more modern rock productions can get a little tricky. I have the ATC SCM10 Pro's, and although these start to roll off even higher than the SCM12's, I've placed mine close to the front wall to get bass reinforcement. In conjunction with Sonarworks I've now got a measured response that's only 3dB down at 30Hz, as these sealed loudspeaker designs roll off more slowly than ported ones! Interesting......I can't get mine that close to a wall, but that's awesome if you can get that out of 10's! |
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Post by jmoose on Feb 8, 2022 19:22:08 GMT -6
That is a weird little alcove your tucked into and yeah... looks like you don't have room to stick another set of monitors on stands on the outside.
I'd agree that pulling in closer to the wall should help with low extension. Using the natural boundary effect. But it looks like that wouldn't work for you either... I'd imagine going deeper into the stairwell (?) would only make things odd.
Sub should be fine. That Adam has a footswitch for bypass? To me in a setup like yours that would be the critical bit. Being able to take it out of the path... either that or commit hardcore to having it in 110% of the time and adjust room tuning accordingly. Both valid workable choices. Bypass vs hard commit.
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Feb 8, 2022 20:18:15 GMT -6
That's why I went with the TC Level Pilot. |
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Post by nick8801 on Feb 8, 2022 20:39:12 GMT -6
Yeah just checked, it has a full bypass switch. I was gonna grab it from Sweetwater but I found a B stock with full warranty 200 bux cheaper online. Good deal. That’s actually not a stairway there in the pic, it’s the roof. My house is an old colonial that has those windows that extend out from the roof. I forget what they are called. I had to put the desk there. It frees up the rest of the room. It’s obviously a bedroom. In the back of the room there was a big sliding door closet. I took off the doors and it extends the back side of the room about another 3 feet. There’s zero symmetry in the entire room. Not sure if that’s good or bad lol. One day I’d love to build a legit studio space somewhere, but until then I make this work!
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Post by jmoose on Feb 8, 2022 21:12:19 GMT -6
That's why I went with the TC Level Pilot. Level pilot is only an analog volume.... What are you using for speaker management? Crossover & overall calibration? Something has to be keeping the sub vs tops balanced..? |
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Feb 8, 2022 21:14:36 GMT -6
That's why I went with the TC Level Pilot. Level pilot is only an analog volume.... What are you using for speaker management? Crossover & overall calibration? Something has to be keeping the sub vs tops balanced..? The sub's got an adjustable crossover on it. My controller's a Burl B26 so I can punch it in and out, then balance the level with the TC. |
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Post by nick8801 on Feb 9, 2022 8:15:35 GMT -6
Just another update on this...I originally wanted to buy the sub from Sweetwater. Found a B stock at ProAudioStar for 200 bucks cheaper...kept looking around and Thomann sells these for 425 bux! That's half the price of what you can get them for here in the states. Crazy. And that keeps me in the price point I was originally looking at. Good deal.
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Post by nick8801 on Feb 14, 2022 19:59:09 GMT -6
Finally got the sub set up today. Does exactly what I wanted. Gives me that weight to the bottom octave. I’ll have to mess around with settings, but so far so good!
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Post by kcatthedog on Feb 15, 2022 5:10:52 GMT -6
and your atc should sound even more clear, let us know what crossover point you settle on and remember Eric's suggestion about playing with phase and starting some as close to front wall as possible on the long axis and then shooting, redo in 6-12 inch increments and flip phase, there should be one spot which is optimal.
There is used pair on GS now and I'm tempted but need to be careful with money and I like having the dsp on my focal shape
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Post by nick8801 on Feb 15, 2022 5:26:28 GMT -6
This was just my initial setup as I only had about a half hour free last night to do any tweaking but I didn’t high pass the ATC’s. They have a very slow roll off right around 80, and doing so kinda made it feel like there was a hole between the speakers and the sub even though I originally had the sub set around 85. This could change as the sub speaker breaks in, but I felt they just kind of gelled together better without the high pass. I settled on filtering the sub somewhere between 70-75 as that seemed to be where it felt the most tight and connected to the Satellites. Right now I have it under the desk, right in the center between the speakers, the same distance from the wall. Tried flipping the phase, but it sounded better in the default phase position. I let the new Nas record play for a few hours while I took care of things around the house. Before bed I popped in to check on it and ended up turning the sub down a bit, and lowering the filter to right around 70. Played Mayer’s “Slow Dancing in a Burning Room” because I find the low end on that record just about perfect. It sounded really killer. The sub definitely needed a little break in time. It went from this woofy, separate sounding thing to a part of the system with those few hours of hip hop! I think it’s pretty solid at the moment. I didn’t reshoot sonarworks because I’m not doing anything different to the ATC’s. I’m just using the sub to grab that bottom octave. I’ll probably try seeing what sonarworks does once I feel more comfortable with my settings, but as of my brief time with it last night, I’m very happy with the results. Also, the smaller sub works just great in my room. It doesn’t overwhelm things, and really only fills things in, in the listening position. It doesn’t sound like a dance club or something lol. Very musical and accurate from what I could tell. Looking forward to messing around with it more and listening to some of my favorite tracks.
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