|
Post by bricejchandler on Jan 5, 2022 2:28:54 GMT -6
One thing I was thinking of is I personally don't think I would really want a console in a one room recording studio.
The reason I bought a console in my old studio was because I was tracking live bands everyday, sometimes up to 10 people playing at the same time. I used the auxes to do quick headphone mixes for everybody, I would use eq pretty extensively, I would buss tracks together and basically just mix as we were tracking and I did quite a few full records like that in one day. It was intense but it was fun, some came out sounding pretty good and it would've been impossible without a console workflow, but also it would've been impossible if I had been in the same room with the bands, particularly since a lot of it was loud punk rock.
I was able to make quick decisions because I was in my quiet control room. Nowadays I do a lot of records where I'm sitting in with the band or playing with them even and the first couple of times I tried to keep my console workflow and I came to realize very quickly that I was often making bad decisions because my listening environment wasn't adequate, and that trying to eq or compress blindly then listening back, have them play again etc was just breaking the flow of sessions and could be frustrating for everyone.
So now I just go these sessions with my mics and pres and make more radical mixing decisions after the recording.
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 5, 2022 9:14:49 GMT -6
This has helped me rethink my needs. I used to record in high end studios all the time, so the idea of a soundboard is probably wired into my DNA by now. But I'm not going to buy anything I don't need right away or in a couple of months. This way I'll see what my needs are first. Should I reach a point where a mixer would be a cost effective way to track bands live, I'll look at something like a Soundcraft, or one of the other suggestions made here.
My true issue is I've never been completely satisfied with the final results from my Apollo. I've always wanted better conversion and a final sound that's bigger, the way a good console makes things sound. Unfortunately, everything I've seen that would get me there is just too damn expensive. The Dangerous 2 bus + would be a huge help, but the most I could possibly spend right now would be $1,000 to $1,200 for any outboard piece. I wouldn't mind an LA2A or Tube Tech CL1B and a Pultec style EQ to add to that. That would kind of get me close to where I'd like to be.
That was why I was thinking of the the Big Six, EQ, compression and conversion in one box with 4 preamps, instead of my Apollo.
|
|
|
Post by subspace on Jan 5, 2022 9:47:26 GMT -6
Can always install a console off to the side, like a piece of outboard. Have a friend who did that. In his room it basically is a piece of outboard. Never mixes through the desk its a bank of preamps & EQ. And right, depending on what needs to be accomplished maybe you don't need one at all. This is exactly what my situation is like. My console is off to the side and back a few feet so no sound is bouncing off of it and coming back at me. This. Sidecars have been in use forever as extra inputs to the main mixing platform and while that platform has transitioned from consoles to DAWs, I find a sidecar console even more useful. I scaled down from a 32x8x16 dual-frame Trident Trimix to a single frame with 16 inputs, 10 returns, 8 busses, and 4 aux sends. I probably wouldn't have bothered for something with transformerless mic pres and pedestrian EQ, I want something I can plug 16 mics into, bus multi-mic'd sources to a comp/EQ and have a solid baseline before booting the computer. I have 10 channels of outboard EQ which mainly gets used on busses or shaping the bottom end instead of the fixed HPF/shelf combo on the desk channel. I'll use outboard pres on vocal or acoustic overdubs but the desk pre wins just as often for guitars and bass in context.
|
|
|
Post by bricejchandler on Jan 5, 2022 9:47:32 GMT -6
Unfortunately I don't think there's one single piece of hardware that's going to give you that console sound.
The single piece of hardware that gets me the closest is the Coil preamp. Pretty much everything I record goes through either the mic preamp or another preamp into the Coils line inputs to get me that glue. I know I talk about them all the time but it's one of the only preamps that I've heard that really makes things sound big and I feel like I do get more of a classic analog console vibe on my tracks now but it is a specific color, I happen to really like it but don't think it'd be everyone's cup of tea.
My personal battle to get things sounding like a record on a budget hasn't been gear so much as dealing with average if not bad acoustics.
I still do a lot of tracking in a really big studio and it's always absolutely effortless to make a good record there. I feel like I could make something great with just a Focusrite Scarlett.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2022 10:20:31 GMT -6
My true issue is I've never been completely satisfied with the final results from my Apollo. I've always wanted better conversion and a final sound that's bigger, the way a good console makes things sound. Unfortunately, everything I've seen that would get me there is just too damn expensive. The Dangerous 2 bus + would be a huge help, but the most I could possibly spend right now would be $1,000 to $1,200 for any outboard piece. I wouldn't mind an LA2A or Tube Tech CL1B and a Pultec style EQ to add to that. That would kind of get me close to where I'd like to be. That was why I was thinking of the the Big Six, EQ, compression and conversion in one box with 4 preamps, instead of my Apollo. Consoles can be very handy especially in OTB setups and live tracking sessions. But again the SSL Big Six won't add much in the way of colour, my SSL 4K didn't and it was more about workflow than anything else. I actually prefer clean(ish) w/ bandwidth as there's plenty of tools / HW to colour the sound.. It's like RND stuff vs. my 6176, I often get better results with the former even if the 6176 rocks it on certain things.. Either way I'd prefer to have the choice. The magic of a large studio is great engineers, musicians, rooms and HW, not just a mixing desk. Also ITB has gotten so much better that to reap any benefit you'd need some very good HW.. If you don't like the Apollo that's fine, I didn't love it either but IMV you either get a different interface (I still very much like the MOTU's) and learn to get along with plugs or you save up and go all out on the OTB route.
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 5, 2022 11:38:58 GMT -6
I see your point Shadow, thanks. How far I'll go depends on some outside factors right now. I have to move soon as I can't afford to stay in my space post divorce.
That setup looks great subspace!
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Jan 5, 2022 11:47:58 GMT -6
Hang in there, Martin!
I don't know if this applies to you, but back when I was doing the "I need a mixer, I need a big studio sound," thing. I just wasn't happy with my ITB sounds.
I don't even give it a second thought, now. I'm very happy with my sounds. Maybe you just need to do some woodshedding with your rig? Perhaps swap out the Apollo as a start?
Or maybe it's something that will just naturally pass over the course of some weeks, months.
For me, the MOTU converters are the answer. Sonarworks on the monitors is the other big answer. And I can recommend plugins all day but don't know if that would specifically help the situation. Have to give a mention to Superior Drummer too for making me a little less reliant on my acoustic drums. These three are "big pieces" for me. Sonarworks, MOTU, Superior Drummer 3.
|
|
|
Post by jmoose on Jan 5, 2022 14:40:43 GMT -6
API Box 2 is pretty appealing by the time you cost it all out. Also, welcome to RGO! I loved your work on Mad Men. Are you actually figuring in all the costs to have a usable console? Sure the base price of an API Box or SSL XL desk isn't that bad... but on their own? You aren't taking it out of the crate and tracking a band. I looked hard at both and was lined up to buy in early 2020. Yes base price is under $20k but to have them workable? My math was more like $45k Both only have 8 onboard mic pres. Not enough to track a full ensemble so you'll still need outboard... Neither desk has EQ only empty 500 slots. So figure, 8 channels of 550's or RND EQ at 1000 each is another $8k - now we're closer to $30k. Then you need cabling. And patchbays. And hopefully if you're going for a brand new desk of that caliber you aren't going with cheesewhiz cables and $89 TRS patchbays. My cabling alone was another $8k +/- 3dB. And you'll need a stand of some sort. Maybe go into the woodshop and build something. Otherwise Argosy or whatever is expensive! Add in taxes, dealer prep & delivery? Much closer to $50k. I was aiming to do it spring of 2020... had financing all laid out. It was going to be like buying a car. And realistically it is like a car. Any console. Even a $1500 soundcraft. You get the options you need, get it installed so its 100% driveable and hopefully get at least a solid decade of service without major issues.
|
|
|
Post by jhamm80 on Jan 5, 2022 15:06:55 GMT -6
API Box 2 is pretty appealing by the time you cost it all out. Also, welcome to RGO! I loved your work on Mad Men. Are you actually figuring in all the costs to have a usable console? Sure the base price of an API Box or SSL XL desk isn't that bad... but on their own? You aren't taking it out of the crate and tracking a band. I looked hard at both and was lined up to buy in early 2020. Yes base price is under $20k but to have them workable? My math was more like $45k Both only have 8 onboard mic pres. Not enough to track a full ensemble so you'll still need outboard... Neither desk has EQ only empty 500 slots. So figure, 8 channels of 550's or RND EQ at 1000 each is another $8k - now we're closer to $30k. Then you need cabling. And patchbays. And hopefully if you're going for a brand new desk of that caliber you aren't going with cheesewhiz cables and $89 TRS patchbays. My cabling alone was another $8k +/- 3dB. And you'll need a stand of some sort. Maybe go into the woodshop and build something. Otherwise Argosy or whatever is expensive! Add in taxes, dealer prep & delivery? Much closer to $50k. I was aiming to do it spring of 2020... had financing all laid out. It was going to be like buying a car. And realistically it is like a car. Any console. Even a $1500 soundcraft. You get the options you need, get it installed so its 100% driveable and hopefully get at least a solid decade of service without major issues. This is basically why I keep holding off and changing my mind. I have 12ch of outboard preamps already and more cabling, patch bays etc are expensive. It really just comes down to "I want one" and trying to justify it. I've built classic fords and harleys for far less than then the total cost of the Box 2 and I actually make a few bucks when I sell those. It's a hard sell to the wife when I don't do this professionally.
|
|
|
Post by notneeson on Jan 5, 2022 15:08:34 GMT -6
For a utility board a Soundcraft Ghost packs a lot of punch considering what they go for now. They sound good if you are mindful of headroom (the busses fold up in a cloudy way that is best avoided).
That said, something like the humble Warm API clone slays the preamps in a Ghost and the Rule Tec suite of plugins have way more vibe for boosts.
|
|
|
Post by Ned Ward on Jan 5, 2022 15:28:18 GMT -6
I think you answered your own question when you said you mostly record yourself one input at a time...
Buy for what you're using now. Rent for when you have to record a band.
I'd spend a big chunk of what would have gone into buying, fixing and maintaining an old analog board into sound treatment - bass traps behind mix, above you, behind, etc. Gobo-style bass traps on casters to create different environments. Look at your monitors - you didn't say what you're monitoring through, but unless you've got the room out of the way and then have good speakers, hard to tell what benefit you'd get out of any gear...
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 5, 2022 16:36:39 GMT -6
Interesting comment notneeson, I wouldn't have thought a Warm preamp would be better than the Ghost preamps. I had their ToneBeast, WA2A, WA76 and their Pultec, but moved on. They were all good but never great.
All good advice, thanks guys.
jhamm80, welcome to the forum!
|
|
|
Post by wiz on Jan 5, 2022 17:30:56 GMT -6
This has helped me rethink my needs. I used to record in high end studios all the time, so the idea of a soundboard is probably wired into my DNA by now. But I'm not going to buy anything I don't need right away or in a couple of months. This way I'll see what my needs are first. Should I reach a point where a mixer would be a cost effective way to track bands live, I'll look at something like a Soundcraft, or one of the other suggestions made here. My true issue is I've never been completely satisfied with the final results from my Apollo. I've always wanted better conversion and a final sound that's bigger, the way a good console makes things sound. Unfortunately, everything I've seen that would get me there is just too damn expensive. The Dangerous 2 bus + would be a huge help, but the most I could possibly spend right now would be $1,000 to $1,200 for any outboard piece. I wouldn't mind an LA2A or Tube Tech CL1B and a Pultec style EQ to add to that. That would kind of get me close to where I'd like to be. That was why I was thinking of the the Big Six, EQ, compression and conversion in one box with 4 preamps, instead of my Apollo. Personally I think the environment you’re in has a much bigger impact than switching from the Apollo to anything else
|
|
|
Post by gravesnumber9 on Jan 5, 2022 18:07:49 GMT -6
API Box 2 is pretty appealing by the time you cost it all out. Also, welcome to RGO! I loved your work on Mad Men. Are you actually figuring in all the costs to have a usable console? Sure the base price of an API Box or SSL XL desk isn't that bad... but on their own? You aren't taking it out of the crate and tracking a band. I looked hard at both and was lined up to buy in early 2020. Yes base price is under $20k but to have them workable? My math was more like $45k Both only have 8 onboard mic pres. Not enough to track a full ensemble so you'll still need outboard... Neither desk has EQ only empty 500 slots. So figure, 8 channels of 550's or RND EQ at 1000 each is another $8k - now we're closer to $30k. Then you need cabling. And patchbays. And hopefully if you're going for a brand new desk of that caliber you aren't going with cheesewhiz cables and $89 TRS patchbays. My cabling alone was another $8k +/- 3dB. And you'll need a stand of some sort. Maybe go into the woodshop and build something. Otherwise Argosy or whatever is expensive! Add in taxes, dealer prep & delivery? Much closer to $50k. I was aiming to do it spring of 2020... had financing all laid out. It was going to be like buying a car. And realistically it is like a car. Any console. Even a $1500 soundcraft. You get the options you need, get it installed so its 100% driveable and hopefully get at least a solid decade of service without major issues. I guess it depends on how you’re using it. I was comparing Box to other solutions that also add up quickly. My thinking was that if medium low end costs $20k at the end of the day, might as well invest in the Box. Wasn’t thinking $50k though. But there’s a reason I’ve never gone Box route. And the fear of creeping costs is the biggest part of it.
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Jan 5, 2022 18:23:53 GMT -6
Hmm, remember, I did this 3-4 years ago, 16/4/2 delta that came with a couple of channels of Jim’s mods was around $600 usd, by the time I had other modules professionally modded, bought cables and patchbays, I easily had $4-5 grand in the board, including shipping and insurance.
While I enjoyed it, I also bought a 16 channel interface and a bunch of ob: easily another $5–7 grand .
When I decided to downsize, very difficult to get even 50% of the value of the board.
I’d focus on your current needs and as said above rent for a band when you need that.
|
|
|
Post by reddirt on Jan 5, 2022 19:02:52 GMT -6
For me, BriceJchandler made a most salient point when he talked about how hard it is to make decisions live when in the same room as the band - It's truly necessary to have individual recording channels fed by quality pres so you can trust what's going to "tape" is good enough to allow you to make decisions after the fact which kind of obviates the need for a desk unless you want the specific sound of that desk which you're not going to find in an affordable piece I wouldn't think.
I reckon we've all given you a lot to think on.
Cheers, Ross
|
|
|
Post by notneeson on Jan 5, 2022 21:12:15 GMT -6
Interesting comment notneeson, I wouldn't have thought a Warm preamp would be better than the Ghost preamps. I had their ToneBeast, WA2A, WA76 and their Pultec, but moved on. They were all good but never great. All good advice, thanks guys. jhamm80, welcome to the forum! The reason BAE and Chandler exist is because console pres started to suck long before the Ghost was born. Warm is just the down market extension of that logic and some of their products really are great bang for the buck. Now, as for being the best clones of vintage gear? Not going to happen at their end of the market. That said, as long as the transformers aren’t garbage, the 312 mic pre circuit strikes me as pretty hard to eff up. (And I’ve used their 4 channel box plenty, it hangs with the boutique stuff on a drum session just fine).
|
|
|
Post by matt@IAA on Jan 5, 2022 21:24:44 GMT -6
If it’s just imaginary, just plan on being the second IAA custom desk. We’ll be ready for the next clean sheet design after we ship the one that’s close to assembly now. 👍
|
|
|
Post by notneeson on Jan 5, 2022 21:34:49 GMT -6
If it’s just imaginary, just plan on being the second IAA custom desk. We’ll be ready for the next clean sheet design after we ship the one that’s close to assembly now. 👍 Pics please!!!
|
|
|
Post by jmoose on Jan 5, 2022 22:22:48 GMT -6
If it’s just imaginary, just plan on being the second IAA custom desk. We’ll be ready for the next clean sheet design after we ship the one that’s close to assembly now. 👍 Pics please!!! They've got some pics on the insta's of gram. Dunno. I'm a console guy, have owned 5 and as a freelancer & just generally being around the stuff for so long have spent time on a whole lotta different desks. IMO if your gonna buy a desk and use it for "console things" - preamps & central monitoring hub - everything goes through it? You don't really "grow" into a desk. It tends to be a system... a running driving car. Little sidecar things aside, get your oddball Studer Ward Beck 8-12 channel broadcast board... hack that for preamps? That's a piece of outboard gear. Bigger desk? Like 24 + channels... all the inserts... bussing... auxes etc? All that wiring? The plumbing's gotta be in place for things to work. Otherwise it doesn't make sense. Consoles in open room environments? Still makes sense. At this point I've probably spent more time in open situations then acoustically isolated control rooms. One of the first records I made like that was at the Phish Barn in VT. They plopped an API Legacy, couple tape machines, bit of outboard... basically everything you need to make an album and nothing you don't... right in the center of a giant barn. No real acoustic treatment. There's a few nooks to isolate a loud cab or something but its just a big open space. Dialing in sounds doesn't have to be a drag for everyone but the pacing & vibe of sessions in that environment? Yeah. Its different then when everything's isolated. I've found there are also a few baseline rules & expectations for tracking like that... and it certainly doesn't work for everyone & every situation. Letting it bleed. One core thing? Don't overpower the room. Too much volume and bad sound? Game over. Need to also be VERY aware of the volume you expose yourself too over the course of a day. I don't shy away from carving stuff up because I'm in the same room. Its just a little different. If anything I'm way less likely to overcook something.
|
|
|
Post by Bat Lanyard on Jan 5, 2022 23:12:59 GMT -6
If you're only mostly recording one to two inputs at a time, maybe focus on the input stage? The nice thing about that is you can get some really nice gear with 1-2 inputs.
Seems that if you're talking about tracking live with multiple players then you're exponentially expanding what you'd need not including the room and treatment.
Just my .02.
I do understand the divorce stranglehold and I do sympathize with you there for sure. Not an easy road but you will come out on the other side for sure.
|
|
|
Post by ragan on Jan 6, 2022 0:16:44 GMT -6
Like lots of other people are saying, the "big console sound" we all love/chase almost universally comes from records that were made with a whole team of people, all of them very good at their roles (including the people who designed the rooms), working together. The idea that a console will deliver That Sound (I am as tempted to believe it as anyone else) is, I think, largely illusory. I think the most overlooked (because it's the hardest to change) factor is the room.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2022 1:41:20 GMT -6
Are you actually figuring in all the costs to have a usable console? Add in taxes, dealer prep & delivery? Much closer to $50k. I was aiming to do it spring of 2020... had financing all laid out. It was going to be like buying a car. And realistically it is like a car. Any console. Even a $1500 soundcraft. You get the options you need, get it installed so its 100% driveable and hopefully get at least a solid decade of service without major issues. I guess it depends on how you’re using it. I was comparing Box to other solutions that also add up quickly. My thinking was that if medium low end costs $20k at the end of the day, might as well invest in the Box. Wasn’t thinking $50k though. But there’s a reason I’ve never gone Box route. And the fear of creeping costs is the biggest part of it. My 5 year studio refit / venture into OTB has cost about $45k so far (that's not including mic's, computers, software, the space itself, the workstation (desk) or instruments). My setup is centred around a $3K SSL Big Six as well, imagine what it would have cost if I'd have gotten a bigger mixer? I won't deny that it has made a massively dramatic difference versus an ITB setup, these made up 95% statistics seem way off and tell none of the story in a holistic setup. However, whether someone prefers it or not is a completely different matter and TBH I've achieved some pretty awesome results by just using some decent tracking hardware / interfaces and plugs. I think there's just some people like me where nothing but the OTB sound will do, whether the end result is better for it? Well, that's all subjective. It's a true apples / oranges conversation in a literal sense, I prefer apples.. Do you? But it's all cumulative, you're generally not going to cheap out where it matters going down this path, room treatment, monitors, instruments etc.
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 6, 2022 9:50:26 GMT -6
I'd like to know a bit more about your SSL Big Six experience Shadow.
What was your previous interface?
Is the Six your main A/D-D/A ?
Do you use the pres, or other pres, or both?
Please say more about the "massively dramatic difference".
Thanks to the comments here I've let go the idea of a tracking mixer until I have a room that I can in fact, track in. That's not such a big deal anyway, start with a Soundcraft and some strategic mics, then move on up if work allows.
Do you use the Big Six for mixing, can you simultaneously use Plug-ins in the DAW too?
Oh, congratulations on getting it, and good luck!
|
|
|
Post by thirdeye on Jan 6, 2022 9:54:14 GMT -6
We have a 24 channel (16 mono w/JW mods, 4 stereo channels unmodded, all groups w/JW mods, master section w/JW mods) Soundcraft Delta with custom Jim Williams built PSU. It sounds f-ing amazing. I absolutely love having a console for tracking (sum multiple microphones to one group, send outboard mic preamps into it for EQ on the way in to Pro Tools, etc...). I love committing during tracking. We were also summing/mixing on it for a while, but now use a SSL Sigma. The Delta sounded just as good.
Unfortunately we don't have room with our current control room configuration to setup the Delta, so it sits unused in another room... Our hope is to move to a bigger place and use the console as a sidecar.
|
|