|
Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 4, 2022 10:16:53 GMT -6
I'm planning to move soon, and hope to have a room dedicated to music work. I mainly track one or two parts at a time, but... in my head I eventually see myself in a decent size room where I can track a small combo live. I'm thinking drums, bass, guitars, keys and vocals.
My question is what mixer would sound good and do a decent job of tracking that way live?
I realize there will be multiple issues in any space, room treatment, sound proofing, etc.. gobos, vocal isolation, mixing room, etc., but for now, I'm enjoying thinking on a mixer in case I bump into a great deal in the classifieds. I would probably start with something like a vintage Soundcraft or a lower end Trident or DDA
I have an Apollo X6 now, a Dizengoff D4 and Stam SA73 preamps, the Soyuz -19 FET, Stam SA67, Avantone C95 mics, and a few Shure's, 57's, 58, and a an Axiom 61 and Yamaha keyboard controller. I'll probably switch to the next gen Mac Mini when it arrives.
I should probably think on buying for what I do first. Mainly I write Alt. Country, Folk Rock, Singer/Songwriter styles for myself, mix and co-produce albums for friends, and occasionally contribute background music for documentaries. That's why I was interested in the SSL Six. I think it would handle my immediate needs well and get my hands off a mouse all the time. The thing is I like, but I'm not married to UAD, so I could consider the new Big Six.
Still, I like to think ahead too, and finding a cool mixer intrigues me.
In truth, if I had a larger space, I might not need a mixer to get started, maybe just an extra outboard preamp like an Audient and the gear I already have.
I'm curious to hear from the gang here as I think out loud.
|
|
|
Post by bricejchandler on Jan 4, 2022 10:35:51 GMT -6
What are your specific needs in a mixer?
Are you going to be using eq on the way in? Do you want to buss tracks together? Will you be using the mixer for headphone mixes?
If you're not really going to be doing any of those things I think that an outboard preamp like the Audient makes a lot of sense. It sounds great, it is small and compact, very reliable, doesn't have a fan.
If you want a mixer , you can get some cool tracking boards for relatively cheap, for pure sound my pick would be an old Studer, for routing, a D&R is great and can be had for peanuts nowadays. I've seen some nice Midas boards for cheap that would work just fine too.
|
|
|
Post by Tbone81 on Jan 4, 2022 10:55:31 GMT -6
If you’re just tracking with it and don’t need advanced routing, a soundcraft delta is hard to beat.
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 4, 2022 11:36:31 GMT -6
Thanks guys, I was thinking it would mainly be a tracking mixer. I'd probably use some EQ going in, but judiciously. I might want to print with some outboard too, like a compressor. The Soundcraft Delta was my first thought. I had never heard of D&R Brice, thanks for mentioning that.
|
|
|
Post by svart on Jan 4, 2022 11:42:12 GMT -6
Get a couple 500 series buckets and load a few preamps and EQs. In today's world there is rarely a need for all the other stuff associated with a mixer. Routing can all be done ITB.
|
|
|
Post by gravesnumber9 on Jan 4, 2022 11:45:19 GMT -6
I'm just here to say this is the best thread title in the history of audio forums. A version of this could be the title of about 90% of purplesite.com threads...
"Help me choose ____ for my imaginary studio."
No disrespect Martin! I totally get what you're saying... just got a good laugh at the headline.
|
|
|
Post by gravesnumber9 on Jan 4, 2022 11:48:24 GMT -6
Get a couple 500 series buckets and load a few preamps and EQs. In today's world there is rarely a need for all the other stuff associated with a mixer. Routing can all be done ITB. If you go this route, worth considering the Cranborne 500ADAT. I love mine.
|
|
|
Post by jeremygillespie on Jan 4, 2022 12:08:38 GMT -6
Martin I can probably hook you up with a delta for a stupid low price if you wanted one.
|
|
|
Post by Tbone81 on Jan 4, 2022 12:27:39 GMT -6
Martin, I recently went through a similar search. I have future plans for building a room that would call for a small mixer to track on. I researched quite a few mixers. There are some Midas consoles, Soundcraft Deltas, APB dynasonics, and a few others that could do nicely. Ultimately I went with a Soundcraft Delta because 1) it was stupid cheap 2) the mods from JW or Creation Audio are very affordable and sound great 3) it’s fully modular.
One thing to look out for if you’re looking into a live sound mixer is make sure to check if the direct outs are pre or post fader, and where the insert/eq is in the signal path. Routing sometimes gets funny with trying to use a live sound mixer for the studio.
|
|
|
Post by the other mark williams on Jan 4, 2022 12:31:16 GMT -6
Martin I can probably hook you up with a delta for a stupid low price if you wanted one. Not to snipe Martin on this possibility, but I just sent you a PM for more info, Jeremy.
|
|
|
Post by jhamm80 on Jan 4, 2022 12:31:22 GMT -6
Hi Martin, I'm new here but I've been researching this question for a long time it seems. The Trident 68 and 78 seem like over-kill for my relatively simple home setup, the Big Six seems too limited. My first choice right now is a Studer 961 or 169, but I'm also weighing 500 series racks and a Speck fader bank. Lots of 500 series racks have summing or the Speck has summing on the M series of their faders if that's an issue. It'd be modular and you can build it up in pieces and maintenance might be simpler. But the cost would probably be similar to a good Studer or Trident 68. Which brings me back around to the API Box 2 and then I just spin in circles while my wife hopes I never decide.lol
|
|
|
Post by the other mark williams on Jan 4, 2022 12:34:24 GMT -6
Hi Martin, I'm new here but I've been researching this question for a long time it seems. The Trident 68 and 78 seem like over-kill for my relatively simple home setup, the Big Six seems too limited. My first choice right now is a Studer 961 or 169, but I'm also weighing 500 series racks and a Speck fader bank. Lots of 500 series racks have summing or the Speck has summing on the M series of their faders if that's an issue. It'd be modular and you can build it up in pieces and maintenance might be simpler. But the cost would probably be similar to a good Studer or Trident 68. Which brings me back around to the API Box 2 and then I just spin in circles while my wife hopes I never decide.lol Welcome to RGO, jhamm80! Nice to have you here.
|
|
|
Post by Blackdawg on Jan 4, 2022 12:37:33 GMT -6
Honestly...if you're just tracking I'm not sure you need a console. Unless you WANT a console, which I'm all for. But given the cost, size, maintenance, I'd be seriously questioning if you'd actually use it even 50% of the time and use it to it's full potential ever.
Not to be a debbie downer...but you could probably invest in a lot of other gear that would merit better results anyways IMO.
If you're going to have a dedicated room Id be looking for simple and great acoustics and great monitors. Like what do you do a vast majority of the time in the studio? I personally spend a LOT of time looking at a computer screen and using a K&M and some some control surface/device and notebooks/music scores. Like 95% of my time is doing that. 5% is turning knobs. So I would never want a big console in my prime seating position which would sit there unused 90% of the time.
Worth thinking about!
|
|
|
Post by gravesnumber9 on Jan 4, 2022 13:00:19 GMT -6
Hi Martin, I'm new here but I've been researching this question for a long time it seems. The Trident 68 and 78 seem like over-kill for my relatively simple home setup, the Big Six seems too limited. My first choice right now is a Studer 961 or 169, but I'm also weighing 500 series racks and a Speck fader bank. Lots of 500 series racks have summing or the Speck has summing on the M series of their faders if that's an issue. It'd be modular and you can build it up in pieces and maintenance might be simpler. But the cost would probably be similar to a good Studer or Trident 68. Which brings me back around to the API Box 2 and then I just spin in circles while my wife hopes I never decide.lol API Box 2 is pretty appealing by the time you cost it all out. Also, welcome to RGO! I loved your work on Mad Men.
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 4, 2022 13:13:17 GMT -6
I'm not locked into a console. I'm moving soon. I'll probably land in an apartment with a small room I'll dedicate to music work. But.. just in case I find a big space off the beaten path, I wanted to have an idea of what would be the best sounding approach to tracking a band live. The Delta seems good for that, and very reasonable, but like jhamm80 mentioned, the Trident and Studer are attractive too.
I appreciate all the comments as I'm still deciding on what I want to do most, track and produce bands, track my own band in my own space, or continue the one track at a time approach that has gained me some good mixing work, song demo productions, and soundtrack work. The space I find will likely dictate which way I go.
*gravesnumber9, I got a kick from your reply. That's exactly why I chose my title! I had no need to pretend anything, just wanted to think it through with some of the friendly and smart members here who always offer good and fair advice. Welcome to the forum!
|
|
|
Post by woofhead on Jan 4, 2022 17:56:43 GMT -6
Soundtracs makes a relatively small 8 buss that could be interesting as well.. A friend has 1 1/2(one has issues) that could be an interesting option. Hes a jazz guy so similar mindset. Funny I was thinking about him last couple days(usually catch up around new years) and was wondering if he was still using it. Not as common as deltas generally, but a lot of deltas are 2 or 4 bus.Ive seen them go for not too much although shipping these days is expensive. Yamaha rm800 is another one to lookout out for I had one for awhile very clean good build except for faders a little wonky good headroom eq limited
|
|
|
Post by jmoose on Jan 4, 2022 18:35:37 GMT -6
Like what do you do a vast majority of the time in the studio? I personally spend a LOT of time looking at a computer screen and using a K&M and some some control surface/device and notebooks/music scores. Like 95% of my time is doing that. 5% is turning knobs. So I would never want a big console in my prime seating position which would sit there unused 90% of the time. Can always install a console off to the side, like a piece of outboard. Have a friend who did that. In his room it basically is a piece of outboard. Never mixes through the desk its a bank of preamps & EQ. And right, depending on what needs to be accomplished maybe you don't need one at all. As a long time console guy myself I think the first thing to do is establish a budget... then intended use & needed features. Budget & condition is a huge factor. Are you closer to $3k or $30k? How about cabling? Maintenance? If you get a mid 80s Soundcraft or old Trident its probably going to need work to be reliable and something you can actually make a record with. If its intended as a tracking sidecar maybe a 10 or 12 channel desk is perfect. If you want to track & mix through it in a traditional style, have outboard reverbs & stuff coming back then you need more channels. FWIW - If anyone's interested I have a 32 channel Ghost that I'd make a sweet deal on. Its the version with MIDI control & mute groups... meter bridge, CPS 275 power supply, stand & cabling. Located 30-40 odd minutes out of NYC I'll deliver within a few hundred miles. Would even trade for a really cool mic or guitar!
|
|
|
Post by reddirt on Jan 4, 2022 18:38:15 GMT -6
We're all pitching in with opinions Martin so here are mine - given that a console will be a bit of a finance soak and you already have 2 good preamps with 2 more on the X6; I'd go a quality ADAT 8 channel such as the Audient (not that I've used it - so purely dreaming here too} , save on money, space and possible maintenance worries. Being realistic,recording an ensemble would probably still be a smaller part of your operation so the 12 pres would be enough to cut that well when needed without over stretching the budget thus allowing you to do probably more important stuff such as room treatment, headphones, monitors, mics, leads etc (they really add up), etc. Of course I understand your dreaming...... Cheers, Ross
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 4, 2022 18:47:29 GMT -6
Food for thought guys, thanks so much.
|
|
|
Post by jeremygillespie on Jan 4, 2022 19:00:16 GMT -6
Martin you can always jump the NJ transit out of the city to Denville when I get the Barn build-out done if you ever need a big room. (whoops haven’t started yet) 😬
|
|
|
Post by gouge on Jan 4, 2022 19:42:41 GMT -6
for a live tracking room, i'd look for a cheap 4 track mixer and get a couple of powered wedges.
do the routing itb and use the wedges for fold back from the converter auxiliary monitor outputs. cheap mixer gives you additional foldback options if needed and allows extra outboard routing if needed.
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Jan 4, 2022 19:51:55 GMT -6
Tascam Model 12 looks like a cool centerpiece to me. It can record internally to an SD card. Or you can use it as a control surface. Or just use it as a mixer. Pretty neat.
Fits my idea of a fantasy (small) piece.
|
|
|
Post by Vincent R. on Jan 4, 2022 19:58:03 GMT -6
Martin you can always jump the NJ transit out of the city to Denville when I get the Barn build-out done if you ever need a big room. (whoops haven’t started yet) 😬 Can’t wait to see what you do with the space.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2022 1:58:24 GMT -6
Martin, unless you're willing to setup a proper hybrid solution (or have a specific need) skip the mixer. Under $15 - 20K desks or mixers aren't super high quality transformer loaded yet low noise mega mixing or tracking tools. IMO there has to be a need to warrant the expense, lack of recall, no automation and general increase in difficulty etc (unity faders / routing ITB? What's the point?).. The best you can hope for outside of the mega buck Neve or API boards is something clean and believe me when I say they add nothing over ITB and a high end interface, in fact they're often far worse.
If used for tracking only then it's just taking up space, a ULN-8 w/ choice pieces of tracking HW or a Cranborne / 500 setup will do the same job with better quality and ergonomics. For me I wanted to mostly remove the need for plugins and DAW's plus have everything running "real-time" with a certain chain signature.. The SSL Big Six is nothing but a routing matrix between the computer and HW, I don't expect and highly doubt it'll add anything to the party besides that. It has a couple of cool inbuilt features I might use but for the most part it serves a core function and nothing else..
However the cost to move mainly OTB has been a bit of a shock, I've overspent quite a bit and cables alone cost $1200.00. I didn't buy Mogami's or top end cables either.. Then you ask yourself how much of an improvement will this actually make? Well, I guess it just depends how obsessive you are, the BetterMaker Mastering Limiter for example made enough difference as an analogue summing mixer / colour box to sort of justify the move. Hopefully when everything else arrives it will add to the mythological unicorn "sound" that I'm chasing.
|
|
|
Post by schmalzy on Jan 5, 2022 2:17:50 GMT -6
Like what do you do a vast majority of the time in the studio? I personally spend a LOT of time looking at a computer screen and using a K&M and some some control surface/device and notebooks/music scores. Like 95% of my time is doing that. 5% is turning knobs. So I would never want a big console in my prime seating position which would sit there unused 90% of the time. Can always install a console off to the side, like a piece of outboard. Have a friend who did that. In his room it basically is a piece of outboard. Never mixes through the desk its a bank of preamps & EQ. And right, depending on what needs to be accomplished maybe you don't need one at all. This is exactly what my situation is like. My console is off to the side and back a few feet so no sound is bouncing off of it and coming back at me. There was someone local to me selling their re-capped Allen & Heath GL4. They just wanted it gone because it was too much console at this point in their life. I got it for practically nothing. 4-band EQ, variable high-pass, polarity flip, 40 channels (only 24 in use; 16 channels pulled off the ends in buckets of 8 channels - the console was cleverly modular in that way). Basically the cheapest way for me to get a bunch of outboard preamps and the cheapest way for me to get a bunch of EQs. I also can't complain about all the routing it's made possible for me. Add in a loud-as-hell headphone amp and a way to submix other headphone mixes and it's a super cool, useful, decent sounding set of preamps.
|
|