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Post by odyssey76 on May 14, 2014 16:58:56 GMT -6
I was wondering what you guys are using for the B3 sound? I'm doing a project that will most likely need a nice Hammond sound. I'm not looking for "Highway Star" type crazy lead stuff (although I really dig Deep Purple) but more of a pad that can fill holes in an arrangement and sound believable.
Also any tips on making a software B3 more "believable" would be cool also. Thanks.........
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Post by wiz on May 14, 2014 17:08:26 GMT -6
I use the B3 that comes in Logic X.
I used to use B4 and B4II from Native Instruments, they were both really cool.
cheers
Wiz
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Post by odyssey76 on May 14, 2014 18:22:22 GMT -6
Thanks Wiz - I've been using the stock B3 plug in Pro Tools with pretty decent success. I'm going to demo a few after I get out of the writing/pre production phase but never really looked into this seriously. Curious to hear the differences.........
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Post by Bob Olhsson on May 14, 2014 18:26:15 GMT -6
If at all possible, I rent a studio! I'm always shocked by how much better the real thing sounds.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 14, 2014 20:05:34 GMT -6
I had always slagged Vintage Organs...The B3 is out of tune - seriously...I can't remember which way right now though - it's either sharp or flat more than 10 cents. Surprisingly though, the last couple of times I've put something down at home, I used the C3 and was pretty satisfied with it. Futz with the presets and it's pretty decent.
I always praised VB3 - but ended up choosing the NI Vintage Organ C3 over it each time.
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Post by levon on May 14, 2014 23:39:11 GMT -6
Native Instruments B4 and GSi's VB3 are both good. VB3 is pretty cheap also. Sometimes I run them through my Marshall amp for distortion, but I always use an outboard leslie sim. I have a Dynacord CLS22 that is very good and sometimes I use an old Korg G4 stomp box. The main problem with a Hammond VI is that you can't move the drawbars while playing and a master keyboard isn't exactly a Hammond keyboard. But you can get close.
Edit: I agree with Bob, you can't beat the real thing, but recording a B3 through a 147 at home is not practical and renting studio time is sometimes out of one's budget. Especially when you live in the middle of nowhere and the next studio with a B3 is a few hours' drive away. If you can do it though, yes the real thing rocks.
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Post by wiz on May 15, 2014 1:20:50 GMT -6
i can move the drawbars on the iPad Logic X app 8).....
I would love a real B3 and a real Wurly 8)
cheers
Wiz
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Post by levon on May 15, 2014 2:22:46 GMT -6
i can move the drawbars on the iPad Logic X app 8)..... I would love a real B3 and a real Wurly 8) cheers Wiz Yeah, on an iPad, but not when you work in Logic on a MacPro, unfortunately. Still, moving virtual bars on a screen is not like moving the real thing. And you can't rock an iPad like a bulky Hammond, lol. Ever tried to climb on top of your iPad while soloing?  I also would love a real B3 and a Wurli, you and me both, bro... |
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Post by odyssey76 on May 15, 2014 3:33:19 GMT -6
Native Instruments B4 and GSi's VB3 are both good. VB3 is pretty cheap also. Sometimes I run them through my Marshall amp for distortion, but I always use an outboard leslie sim. I have a Dynacord CLS22 that is very good and sometimes I use an old Korg G4 stomp box. The main problem with a Hammond VI is that you can't move the drawbars while playing and a master keyboard isn't exactly a Hammond keyboard. But you can get close. Edit: I agree with Bob, you can't beat the real thing, but recording a B3 through a 147 at home is not practical and renting studio time is sometimes out of one's budget. Especially when you live in the middle of nowhere and the next studio with a B3 is a few hours' drive away. If you can do it though, yes the real thing rocks. Thanks Levon - I'll check out the NI B4 when I get a chance, I've heard some good things about that one. As far as a real studio, it would be ideal but I don't have the cash or time to go to a place with the real thing. I know a real B3 is the way to go. Not only is the sound/tone better but there's nothing like a couple nice mics in a nice room to get that "atmospheric" pad sound that a software emulation doesn't quite capture. Some day when I have my dream room on my own property......  |
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Post by levon on May 15, 2014 4:22:54 GMT -6
Not sure whether the B4 is still available, I think NI changed to newer versions of Kontakt and B4 fell by the wayside. Don't like the new NI organs at all. Make sure to check out VB3, that's still around. My two best friends are keyboard players and swear they like VB3 more than B4.
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Post by popmann on May 15, 2014 8:22:03 GMT -6
If only people knew someone who actually played Hammond who could cut tracks for them remotely! How cool would THAT be?
The answer (for me) to the SOFTWARE emulation thing is as long as its a model based unit AND you have drawbars to play, I can make it work. The B4 (v1) is still best, IMO. VB3 is "ok"...so is the B4II...Logic's is useable (and free)...again-being able to move the drawbars WHILE you play is key. End of the day, the rest of the sound is the Leslie emulation--that's way harder than the organ itself. In fact, any decent modeling based unit into an old Leslie, I couldn't tell you the difference without sitting with it right next to my c3.
So, I guess, the answer is...,if you don't play Hammond, none of them will do well...if you do, they'll all get varying degrees of good. Including the first model based unit I bought some 20 years ago--the Voce V3....or the current emulation I own in Korg's Cx3...the person who appreciates the real deal is the player. Which is why I own my old C3/122...and I will say, its not hard to record. See again...."source, source, source"...
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Post by littlesicily on May 15, 2014 14:47:11 GMT -6
Logic's B3, with some tweaking, is the best plug I've used...better than PT's, IMO. But, nothing really fills the space the way and real Hammond/tube Leslie does. For demos, I just use PT and have some settings I can make work. For records, I go to a bud's and play the real thing.
Best non-hammond thing I've heard was a Nord thru a Leslie.
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Post by wiz on May 15, 2014 16:56:36 GMT -6
I always thought the original B4 sounded better than NI's B4II
cheers
Wiz
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Post by Johnkenn on May 15, 2014 19:35:02 GMT -6
i can move the drawbars on the iPad Logic X app 8)..... I would love a real B3 and a real Wurly 8) cheers Wiz Wiz, do you work for Logic? |
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Post by odyssey76 on May 15, 2014 19:51:04 GMT -6
If only people knew someone who actually played Hammond who could cut tracks for them remotely! How cool would THAT be? The answer (for me) to the SOFTWARE emulation thing is as long as its a model based unit AND you have drawbars to play, I can make it work. The B4 (v1) is still best, IMO. VB3 is "ok"...so is the B4II...Logic's is useable (and free)...again-being able to move the drawbars WHILE you play is key. End of the day, the rest of the sound is the Leslie emulation--that's way harder than the organ itself. In fact, any decent modeling based unit into an old Leslie, I couldn't tell you the difference without sitting with it right next to my c3. So, I guess, the answer is...,if you don't play Hammond, none of them will do well...if you do, they'll all get varying degrees of good. Including the first model based unit I bought some 20 years ago--the Voce V3....or the current emulation I own in Korg's Cx3...the person who appreciates the real deal is the player. Which is why I own my old C3/122...and I will say, its not hard to record. See again...."source, source, source"... Popman - I'm guessing you may be that guy who cuts the Hammond tracks remotely? Let me know if so - I'll be going that route with a drummer so why not keys also. Still want to to get a decent emulation just for my own demo purposes and to hash out ideas but would much rather have the real thing on a record. |
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Post by wiz on May 15, 2014 22:23:28 GMT -6
i can move the drawbars on the iPad Logic X app 8)..... I would love a real B3 and a real Wurly 8) cheers Wiz Wiz, do you work for Logic? I hardly work at all John... 8) Wiz |
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Post by nico on May 16, 2014 3:00:26 GMT -6
For the real feel ( and deal ), fantastic sound, way less money and space than the B3, check out used L100's or Porta-B's. Will beat any emulation from sundawn to sunset. I've heard some Nord-keyboard players using the organ emulations with leslie cabins and it sounded good. Then, again as with most emulations, if what you're after is adding a layer of organ in a busy rock song, or a background organ pad, I guess any emulation might do the trick. popmann suggestion's really good : a pro player who has all the goodies home, a home studio and does remote sessions through internet. In the end it only depends on what kind of realism you're after Regards, Nico |
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Post by keymod on May 16, 2014 4:15:51 GMT -6
I've got a double-manual Korg BX3 that is very nice. Years ago I had a Hammond M3 with a Leslie 145. Still have the Leslie and I am meaning to get it into operation. Found a CBS Leslie pre-amp pedal to use it with. IMHO, the thing about Hammonds is the tube circuitry and the interaction with the Leslie which, of course, is also a tube-based amplifier. I also have a Receptor with NI Komplete installed, which includes the B4II. Using the Korg as a controller works quite well.
I think it would be awesome to have a midi-controlled Leslie.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 16, 2014 8:09:08 GMT -6
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Post by popmann on May 16, 2014 9:16:52 GMT -6
Yes, I do cut remote organ tracks.
The deal with making the emulations believable is that respecting the things that are real....no sustain pedal....move the drawbars while playing...set up a volume pedal, once Hammonds have no dynamics...don't go above high C from a 61 note board...
The problem is its hard...I mean it was for me...I played piano and sigital keys as a teen, and when I got into Hammond in my 20s, I figured "it's a keyboard"...only not knowing. It's effectively not. It's closer to playing drums in terms of cordinarion.
Another thought--if you arent buying a drawbar controller (im telling you organ playing isnt the software) you likely want one that will morph from one drawbar setting to another with the mod wheel. This is a savior in the beginning--I know Logic's will...my elderly Voce rack unit will...I didn't think of that in the first post.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 16, 2014 12:30:12 GMT -6
I think the bigger problem for me - not being an organ player (Well, B3 that is) - is that I don't know when to change the drawbars...I've gotten to where I know which drawbars I like to pull out...but not really when to change them...Oh, and then there's the whole playing thing.
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Post by popmann on May 16, 2014 23:03:36 GMT -6
Well, there's certainly no rules....some guys won't change them at all. I like to tweak them while the Leslie spins up and down...but, since getting the real deal I do it less--since I can simply set the two manuals differently...play one in the verses....one in the choruses kinda thing...
But, the guys who really play better than me are constantly playing with them. That's actually why I made reference to the Hammond not being "a keyboard instrument" like piano and digital keys...the "playing" of it is SO much in the coordination of spinning the leslie up and down, moving the DBs...volume pedal....and playing different pieces on the different manuals. Where a key pad or synth bass or EP or piano or whatever--is all kind of variations on the same skillset...the Hammond is a different deal.
I learned from getting emulations decades ago that were static...and sample based...and then when Voce came out with their V3 and drawbar set it was like "fuck me--THAT's why it sounded like an organ but not real in a track"...you NEED modeling tech and drawbars moving to get the sound I wanted. But, I didn't know....I would just play some stabs and slurs and go "hey...that sounds cool"...
Mike Finnegan=my fucking Hammond hero.
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 17, 2014 7:32:08 GMT -6
I know a guy that brings his C3 and Leslie to the monthly blues jam that I mix at. I agree completely that is all about the drawbars and knowing how to control the rig. Some piano player sat in on the c3 for a couple songs and it was a huge dropoff. Not because of the playing, but the control of the instrument.
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Post by littlesicily on May 17, 2014 13:38:35 GMT -6
In that example, I liked the 3rd clone the best... anyone know what they were? |
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Post by Johnkenn on May 17, 2014 15:11:05 GMT -6
I think you have to buy the video...
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