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Post by indiehouse on Aug 18, 2021 10:24:56 GMT -6
What's your technique to add depth and life to drums? What's your technique to add depth and life to drums? I was reading this article, www.izotope.com/en/learn/9-tips-for-using-reverb-with-drums.html, which discusses adding different types of reverb to different elements of the drum tracks to give them depth and width.
That article talks about adding a reverb plugin to the track (rather than a send) to "We don’t want the reverb to sit back in the mix—we want it to be part of the sound. That’s why we use the insert approach here." Is that a thing?
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Post by Tbone81 on Aug 18, 2021 11:50:42 GMT -6
I sometimes use reverb as an insert but never for drums. It’s usually when I have some sort of unique sound FX thing happening.
I do however blend different verbs on drums. Usually something specific on snare and then OH or Rooms or Entire kit to an ambient reverb for more of a room sound.
But, for me, getting that 3D sound is about having great room mics. I like to track with a lot of room mics. I often have an AB pair of close mics AB pair of far mics, blumlien front of kit pair and a mono room somewhere. I don’t use them all but it’s a way for me to experiment, and provides me with choices during the mix. Every session is a little different and sometimes those AB pairs become xy or blumlien depending what mics I have available and the room. But having nice room mics really adds that 3D sound imho.
Another thing I just recently did, on accident, is I had two mono room mics setup in different places (at different distances). The mics were pretty different sounding, a c12 clone and a gefell umt70, but I made them a stereo pair in the mix and hard panned them left and right. Level matched them and damn if they don’t sound cool. They reall make things sound wide and 3D and the OH and direct mics help keep things solid in the center (snare, kick etc).
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Post by svart on Aug 18, 2021 12:26:58 GMT -6
Snare will get a sample, sometimes 2 or 3 stacked. It might also get a snare-only room sample. Parallel drum bus for adding or subtracting body of the shells. Sends to snare verb (really short plate for thickness), drum-only verb(nonlinear or medium-short room with slow attack and fast decay) and room emulation verb (stylized longer reverb for accentuating a room sound).
Distortion! Usually a crunchy clipper like JST clip or perhaps the warmth setting on Arouser set really high, placed on the drum bus.
I generally don't like reverbs on the actual tracks mainly due to high PDC values during tracking. I usually place them as sends so I can shut them down during recording to keep latencies down if I don't need to monitor through them.
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Post by Guitar on Aug 18, 2021 12:50:46 GMT -6
Yeah, I use a reverb insert on snare drum. PSP 2445. It does sort of become part of the sound.
I agree with TBone, the mic array gets the '3D'. In my case, a Mid/Side close room pair with a ribbon as the sides. And the drum overheads and close mic panning has to match the ambient pickup for pinpoint accuracy in the drum image. I use a narrowed ORTF SDC pair for overheads.
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Post by notneeson on Aug 18, 2021 13:15:46 GMT -6
I am out of the habit of using reverb on drums.
I do want a room mic (or mics) and, failing that, will use samples with good ambience to recreate the sound of the snare (in particular) exciting a room. SD3 with Hansa is great for that, when needed.
The biggest lesson for me, learned long ago when I muted an in-the-room scratch vocal and my drum sound fell apart, is that a mic pointed away from the drums can be the key to creating depth/ambience. For me anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2021 16:07:13 GMT -6
This is like asking what is good for you or pleasing in small or reasonable amounts but will kill you if you take enough or keep on doing it past the threshold of pain. And the answer is everything.
Good drummers New heads Well tuned drums Good rooms Good mics Good pres Good converters Proximity effect Low shelves high shelves Colored eq and channel strips compression resonant high pass filters tape plugs tube plugs paralleled clippers and wave shapers Overdriving stuff Plate reverb Room reverb
Go nuts and if it sounds good in the mix, it is good! If it sounds fake, it is fake! If it sounds distorted, it is distorted! So take it back a notch or 10 if that’s the case. Use your ears.
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Post by indiehouse on Aug 18, 2021 17:31:52 GMT -6
What are some of everyone’s favorite reference tracks for drums?
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Post by Tbone81 on Aug 18, 2021 17:58:34 GMT -6
What are some of everyone’s favorite reference tracks for drums? Pretty much everything off Thirteen Steps by A Perfect Circle. Josh Freeze playing, Andy Wallace mixing = winning combo. Love the way that record sounds. Especially on the song Halo.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Aug 18, 2021 18:19:36 GMT -6
What are some of everyone’s favorite reference tracks for drums? Wallflowers Bringing down the Horse Any time Jay Bellerose is playing drums and Ryan Freeland is the engineer. Lots of those records about. A few are: Lots of Sara bareilles records are great too. I think this is Jay on this as well. The Mayer records with Sterling on drums are all great. Amazing player.
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Post by indiehouse on Aug 18, 2021 19:11:13 GMT -6
What are some of everyone’s favorite reference tracks for drums? Wallflowers Bringing down the Horse Any time Jay Bellerose is playing drums and Ryan Freeland is the engineer. Lots of those records about. A few are: Lots of Sara bareilles records are great too. I think this is Jay on this as well. The Mayer records with Sterling on drums are all great. Amazing player. Dude, I LOVE that Ray LaMontagne record. That’s one of my favs. Those drums, tho…unreal. I wish I could get a fraction of that sound.
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Post by soundintheround on Aug 18, 2021 20:34:11 GMT -6
An old vintage kit with some character + 3 mics or less + cool sounding room + distortion via patching through misc gear (ie old preamps, tape machines, tubes EQ/Limiters etc) Plus a good drummer obviously
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Post by phdamage on Aug 18, 2021 20:45:18 GMT -6
Distortion and samples/reverbs are my go-tos. Snare treatment seems far and away the most crucial for me
For distortion, I still like the decapitator on the drum buss. Sometimes radiator or boz little clipper on the snare. Devil loc deluxe sometimes on room mics.
For samples, I have a ton of my own from my last giant live room that I use on snare all the time.
For verbs, I really love the uad ocean way and the eventide tverb. Sometimes ew spaces or waves IR-L
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Post by soundintheround on Aug 18, 2021 20:47:14 GMT -6
In the plug-in world.....Soundtoys Devil-Loc Deluxe at the end of the chain can certainly inject some depth and life.
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Post by Ward on Aug 18, 2021 20:53:54 GMT -6
Start with killer sounding drums. i love dry heads on snares. And then the right mics. Cut as much 325-350 as you can get away with and don't be afraid to HPF everything but the kick. Compress compress compress and then limit. My basic starting point for a nice 4-5 piece kit is: Kick In. Tfunk M82 or AKG D12e or RE27 - Focusrite 220, usual mid cut and limiter only set to 0 Kick Out Neumann U47 FET - Focusrite 220, usual mid cut and limiter only set to 0 Snare mic 1. Dynamic. Tfunk M80, or Beyer 201, maybe early beta 57 or Yammy M205be 1073, EQ notch out some 700-800, add some high end, hit a 76 Snare mic 2. Condensor. AKG C460/ck1 cap, C451 or Noym KM84. 1073, EQ notch out some 700-800, add some high end, hit a 76 Snare Bottom. Senn 441. Focusrite 428 preamp. hpf at 320 Hi Tom. Neumann U89 cardioid or wide cardioid, APi312, audioscape MEQ. That's it. Hit the EQ hard. Mid Tom. Neumann U89 cardioid or wide cardioid, APi312, audioscape MEQ. That's it. Hit the EQ hard. Low Tom Neumann U89 cardioid or wide cardioid, APi312, audioscape MEQ. That's it. Hit the EQ hard. Floor Tom Heiserman 47fet, occasionally an old D112. HPF @ 160, Boost on EQ, cut 350, add some 4k Hats. Noym 102, Neve 33420. Rarely deviate Ride. Noym 102, Grace pre, sometime touch Grace 102 comp Overheads. usually Beyer mc930 in XY, 1073 pre. OH 2. markfouxman's Samar VL37, ISA428, hpf 80 Room Mics Pair of 87s, Traverse tube pre, audioscape D-Comp. Mono room, sometimes the @cseranno 87 crushed, sometimes the Heiserman H47T crushed. Always omni.
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Post by schmalzy on Aug 18, 2021 23:16:30 GMT -6
A lot of cool info here. I agree with a lot of stuff.
Important things I wanted to mention for my process/sound:
Overhead stereo image (really, any mics that give you detail) needs to be appropriate with the arrangement of the rest of the track. Nothing sounds 3D if everything is in everything else's way.
i love having a mono room mic plus a pair for stereo room. Reverb as insert? Only sometimes on my mono room when I want to make it feel a little more blurry but want to maintain what's good about it.
Find a door far from the drums, close it most of the way, put a mic on the other side. That pretty late drum thing is really cool. Use a delay plugin to help place it in a time relationship to the other mics that feels good.
Keep as much ring in your drums as the arrangement/density of the track will tolerate. Let the snare be a little long. Let the toms be a little long. Don't over-mute the kick. That stuff will disappear especially if you rely on the overheads and rooms for the majority of the kit sound. So much of the personality is in the ring. Check if the ring is too long by listening in context. The more complete a scratch track/rough demo/prepro session you have the better.
Keep as much 500hz-1kHz as you can. That's where all the flavor is. It's easy to cut it all out. Leave as much as possible to get the throaty/knocky/grunty stuff. I'm still cutting it on many sources (either in tracking or in mixing) but I'm not cutting as much as I used to. Cut more early in the mix and remember to come back and try to push some up every now and then. I'll often use a close kit/room mic as my main source for that stuff. I constantly try to push it up more.
My mixes got better when I started implementing a snare room sample in addition to the room mics and the reverbs. Blend a couple reverbs to give you a layered ambience.
I hear a lot of distortion when soloed but not as much in context. If I'm working in a rock track then a lot of saturation/clipping/limiting is happening. I also like JST Clip (like svart mentioned) but I also like Reaper's Event Horizon, the Kush Omega saturations, and the saturations in my Console 1 channel strips. Boz's +10db for compression if I need more poke/teeth.
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Post by phdamage on Aug 18, 2021 23:18:33 GMT -6
Floor Tom Heiserman 47fet, occasionally an old D112. HPF @ 160, Boost on EQ, cut 350, add some 4k Hats. Noym 102, Neve 33420. Rarely deviate i. High passing floor tom at 160Hz?!!! That blew my mind. There is a lotta floor tom below 160! Hey, if it works, it works, but I don’t think I’ve ever let a high pass on a floor tom get any higher than 80Hz
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Post by drumsound on Aug 19, 2021 0:02:12 GMT -6
What's your technique to add depth and life to drums? What's your technique to add depth and life to drums? I was reading this article, www.izotope.com/en/learn/9-tips-for-using-reverb-with-drums.html, which discusses adding different types of reverb to different elements of the drum tracks to give them depth and width.
That article talks about adding a reverb plugin to the track (rather than a send) to "We don’t want the reverb to sit back in the mix—we want it to be part of the sound. That’s why we use the insert approach here." Is that a thing?
I think a lot of self taught DAW learners do that. Never having to deal with a console with 6 sends and 2 reverb units (max) in the rack makes life a little different. I love when all I ever put on drums is a parallel comp and room mics. I happens a lot. I'm a complete make it happen in the simplest way possible and make it sound like humans played an instrument.
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Post by markfouxman on Aug 19, 2021 4:54:08 GMT -6
Ward, Our users used the VL37 on Hi Hat and loved it. Here is a recording track from our friends from Microstudio in Germany. At the same time you can check it on vocals. Starts at about 1:00. Also, a few users tried the AL95 on snare with excellent results, so don't afraid to experiment!!! Best, M
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2021 6:15:52 GMT -6
Nuke the room.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Aug 19, 2021 8:56:37 GMT -6
Wallflowers Bringing down the Horse Any time Jay Bellerose is playing drums and Ryan Freeland is the engineer. Lots of those records about. A few are: Lots of Sara bareilles records are great too. I think this is Jay on this as well. The Mayer records with Sterling on drums are all great. Amazing player. Dude, I LOVE that Ray LaMontagne record. That’s one of my favs. Those drums, tho…unreal. I wish I could get a fraction of that sound. I’ve read Ryan saying that the drum room sound for that particular sound was the drums in the vocal mic. Had to live with it and it’s freaking great!
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Aug 19, 2021 11:14:18 GMT -6
Start with killer sounding drums. i love dry heads on snares. And then the right mics. Cut as much 325-350 as you can get away with and don't be afraid to HPF everything but the kick. Compress compress compress and then limit. My basic starting point for a nice 4-5 piece kit is: Kick In. Tfunk M82 or AKG D12e or RE27 - Focusrite 220, usual mid cut and limiter only set to 0 Kick Out Neumann U47 FET - Focusrite 220, usual mid cut and limiter only set to 0 Snare mic 1. Dynamic. Tfunk M80, or Beyer 201, maybe early beta 57 or Yammy M205be 1073, EQ notch out some 700-800, add some high end, hit a 76 Snare mic 2. Condensor. AKG C460/ck1 cap, C451 or Noym KM84. 1073, EQ notch out some 700-800, add some high end, hit a 76 Snare Bottom. Senn 441. Focusrite 428 preamp. hpf at 320 Hi Tom. Neumann U89 cardioid or wide cardioid, APi312, audioscape MEQ. That's it. Hit the EQ hard. Mid Tom. Neumann U89 cardioid or wide cardioid, APi312, audioscape MEQ. That's it. Hit the EQ hard. Low Tom Neumann U89 cardioid or wide cardioid, APi312, audioscape MEQ. That's it. Hit the EQ hard. Floor Tom Heiserman 47fet, occasionally an old D112. HPF @ 160, Boost on EQ, cut 350, add some 4k Hats. Noym 102, Neve 33420. Rarely deviate Ride. Noym 102, Grace pre, sometime touch Grace 102 comp Overheads. usually Beyer mc930 in XY, 1073 pre. OH 2. markfouxman 's Samar VL37, ISA428, hpf 80 Room Mics Pair of 87s, Traverse tube pre, audioscape D-Comp. Mono room, sometimes the @cseranno 87 crushed, sometimes the Heiserman H47T crushed. Always omni. I'm surprised you can get a decent drum sound with only 16 mics.
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Post by drumsound on Aug 19, 2021 16:17:52 GMT -6
Today I was mixing something that was mostly this slow minor riff, but there there's a turnaround where it feels like it will pick up, but then goes back to the durge-y riff. I did some clip gain to make that section bloom but just having the room mics get louder in the mix. Easy, peasy.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2021 17:14:15 GMT -6
Today I was mixing something that was mostly this slow minor riff, but there there's a turnaround where it feels like it will pick up, but then goes back to the durge-y riff. I did some clip gain to make that section bloom but just having the room mics get louder in the mix. Easy, peasy. No other drastic move works every time.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 19, 2021 17:18:55 GMT -6
I've been mixing a friend's next album and the drummer's tracks don't sound great. I begin with UAD's Ocean Way Studios to put the drums in the same room with the other instruments. I then use the Liquid Sonics 7th Heaven as a main reverb and the Relab XL480, which is the is the plug-in I've found so far for making the drums feel a little bigger.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2021 17:32:57 GMT -6
I've been mixing a friend's next album and the drummer's tracks don't sound great. I begin with UAD's Ocean Way Studios to put the drums in the same room with the other instruments. I then use the Liquid Sonics 7th Heaven as a main reverb and the Relab XL480, which is the is the plug-in I've found so far for making the drums feel a little bigger. Psp emt 2445 “snare enhance” preset. Then eq it and blend it in just where you can’t hear it. Done. relab sonsig can sound even bigger then the lx480 without the grain. You can gate it too. Fuse, Goodhertz, uhe satin are drum muscle milk. Molot sigma compression is like a dbx 160 on steroids if you want a hard hitting compressor home run race. Vulf Compressor makes everything jacked like your drums wandered onto the set of predator. Of course the color is as obvious as the predator’s glow stick blood. I’ve never used it in a mix for that reason but damn is it cool.
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