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Post by Vincent R. on Aug 11, 2021 5:15:08 GMT -6
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Post by seawell on Aug 11, 2021 6:26:35 GMT -6
Very cool, thanks for sharing. I only wish he would’ve had a BeesNeez on hand to include in the shootout.
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Post by Guitar on Aug 11, 2021 8:04:56 GMT -6
I thought the clones fell apart a bit with his mix EQ, and the original stayed tighter. I bet you could do better with a digital EQ than the console he was using, if I had to guess, to treat each one as its own sound separately.
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Post by Vincent R. on Aug 11, 2021 8:53:33 GMT -6
In my opinion none of the clones have the natural compression that the original has. In fact, this is where most clones miss the mark when cloning the Neumann mics. I jokingly call it the "Neumann hug." The Warm actually had it a bit, but its dull sounding. I agree with Ulf about the Serrano lacking low end, but found the Stam more sibilant on top. I believe Serrano has addressed that in his current 87 offering. I wish that had put a U87AI in here too. I would have been curious about that.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Aug 11, 2021 11:09:16 GMT -6
In my opinion none of the clones have the natural compression that the original has. In fact, this is where most clones miss the mark when cloning the Neumann mics. I jokingly call it the "Neumann hug." The Warm actually had it a bit, but its dull sounding. I agree with Ulf about the Serrano lacking low end, but found the Stam more sibilant on top. I believe Serrano has addressed that in his current 87 offering. I wish that had put a U87AI in here too. I would have been curious about that. It all comes down to the capsule, some try to tune out that compression, now some guy in China who’s lurking is going to overstate it. |
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Post by phdamage on Aug 11, 2021 13:19:19 GMT -6
digging dude's DS-13 shirt and Disfear hat!
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Post by mcirish on Aug 11, 2021 14:02:26 GMT -6
Surprising results for me. I liked the Neumann the best and the Warm was second best to my ears. The Stam had a sibilance I didn't care for and the Serrano seemed to lack depth. If I had to buy a clone right now, I'd pick the Warm. I wasn't expecting to think that.
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Post by cserrano on Aug 11, 2021 14:24:20 GMT -6
I contacted HoboRec, the author of that video. I'm wondering if something faulty is going on with that Serrano 87. I offered to send him a brand new one. I'm waiting for his response. The Serrano 87 should not lack in any depth.
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Post by notneeson on Aug 11, 2021 14:35:51 GMT -6
I mean, the Serrano could simply have the least flattering placement, it's the only one she's projecting over the top of.
Before I bought mine I was able to test it out on my crazy talented neighbor, did not lack for anything.
Anyway, guess I'm biased, I just always take these videos with a huge grain of salt. Remember: the internet thinks U87AIs are unusable. Sheesh.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 11, 2021 14:39:12 GMT -6
I think if you moved the Serrano around a bit you would get the same amount of proximity effect that you get out of that 87 and the Warm. I really felt like I could get what I want from an 87 with a bit of work on position and preamp choice. The sibilance with the Stam stood out, but again position and pre amo could cure that. Really really wanted to love the Warm but it just lacked life, however I know I could make it work. Having used way to many 87’s I didn’t find any of these including the Vintage to blow me away, but I also found them all to fit into the 87 family.
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Post by OtisGreying on Aug 11, 2021 14:49:40 GMT -6
I’m in the camp of, different takes, but same mic position allows for a better evaluation of how each mic really sounds. I’d be curious to see him do a shootout in that vein.
Just looking at the video the Serrano capsule is level with her throat, which off the bat is not going to be the best representation or give any sense of “natural compression” because most of the vocal is going over the capsule.
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Post by mcirish on Aug 11, 2021 15:11:38 GMT -6
I’m in the camp of, different takes, but same mic position allows for a better evaluation of how each mic really sounds. I’d be curious to see him do a shootout in that vein. Just looking at the video the Serrano capsule is level with her throat, which off the bat is not going to be the best representation or give any sense of “natural compression” because most of the vocal is going over the capsule. You might be right on that. I didn't pay any attention to how the mics were set up. Moving one a couple inches would change it dramatically. Shootouts are hard to do well. |
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Post by seawell on Aug 11, 2021 16:17:42 GMT -6
I’m in the camp of, different takes, but same mic position allows for a better evaluation of how each mic really sounds. I’d be curious to see him do a shootout in that vein. Just looking at the video the Serrano capsule is level with her throat, which off the bat is not going to be the best representation or give any sense of “natural compression” because most of the vocal is going over the capsule. I agree! I don't know the best way to get around it but I don't like shootouts where someone is singing into all mics at once. The reason being, which mic are they hearing in their headphones? I prefer one at a time so the artist can interact with the mic and see if that affects their performance. That's how I do it when auditioning mics for a vocalist in the studio. How someone interacts with the mic(by what they are hearing) is a huge deal to me. |
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Post by BenjaminAshlin on Aug 11, 2021 17:13:19 GMT -6
Interesting. He pretty much summed up what I heard as well.
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Post by chessparov on Aug 11, 2021 17:42:24 GMT -6
Within the video itself, as presented...
Neumann/Warm R2/Sorrento/Stam for best to least.
But...
I agree with what JJ Blair has stated before (as I understand it)/and mentioned here...
Better to have the best placement for the singer, on each specific microphone.
The "Equi-Distant" isn't as reliable IMHO.
Chris
P.S. I agree that the Beesneez 87 belongs in the shootout too.
IMHO Ben nailed the 70's/U87 tone on that one.
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Post by Guitar on Aug 11, 2021 18:24:38 GMT -6
The Warm surprised me too. Not going to buy one, but it was right up there with them. This would all go to crackers if any of us had the 4 mics, there's no substitute for personal time with these things. From my experience with the WA84, if that's enough to judge a brand on, I know pretty well that their mics are not quite right for me.
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Post by gwlee7 on Aug 11, 2021 18:36:57 GMT -6
I have a Warm 87. Meh. It’s a good mic but it is not in the same league as my Gefel UM 70. It’s a mic that I wish I hadn’t been in such a rush to buy just like some others I have now that I wish hadn’t bought.
ETA: and, I loaned out the Warm to a friend who it works well with. He sent me back some vocals of a song we are demoing and it sounds really good. He then came out to my place and we retracked the vocal using my Gefell M92.1s. That destroyed the Warm but to be fair, my room is also in way better shape than his.
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Post by tkaitkai on Aug 11, 2021 18:39:55 GMT -6
I mean, the Serrano could simply have the least flattering placement, it's the only one she's projecting over the top of. Before I bought mine I was able to test it out on my crazy talented neighbor, did not lack for anything. Anyway, guess I'm biased, I just always take these videos with a huge grain of salt. Remember: the internet thinks U87AIs are unusable. Sheesh. Bingo. I've never been a fan of the whole "put a bunch of mics up and record all at once" approach to vocal shootouts. You essentially trade one confounding variable (different takes) for another (impossible to be directly on-axis with all mics simultaneously). First thought when watching this was there's no way the Serrano is that smeared/unclear up top. Has to be an off-axis thing. |
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Post by ciscokid on Aug 11, 2021 19:08:58 GMT -6
So was the Neumann u87 randomly in the optimal spot to make it sound so much better than the others?
Obviously it’s not a perfect comparison but I suspect it would sound great in any of the positions those other mics were in.
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Post by tkaitkai on Aug 11, 2021 19:22:44 GMT -6
So was the Neumann u87 randomly in the optimal spot to make it sound so much better than the others? Obviously it’s not a perfect comparison but I suspect it would sound great in any of the positions those other mics were in. It very well could have been. Hard to tell from the video. This could also be proof of the oft-repeated point that Neumann mics tend to have great off-axis response. A lot of people claim this is the hardest part to get right with clone mics. Maybe there's something to this claim after all. Still, I'm almost never interested in hearing what a mic sounds like three inches to the left of someone's mouth. I want to know what it sounds like directly on-axis 4 - 8" away. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 11, 2021 20:25:46 GMT -6
So was the Neumann u87 randomly in the optimal spot to make it sound so much better than the others? Obviously it’s not a perfect comparison but I suspect it would sound great in any of the positions those other mics were in. I’ll bet they started with The Neumann in its sweet spot and built the wall of clones around it. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Aug 11, 2021 22:24:13 GMT -6
I’m in the camp of, different takes, but same mic position allows for a better evaluation of how each mic really sounds. I’d be curious to see him do a shootout in that vein. Just looking at the video the Serrano capsule is level with her throat, which off the bat is not going to be the best representation or give any sense of “natural compression” because most of the vocal is going over the capsule. I agree! I don't know the best way to get around it but I don't like shootouts where someone is singing into all mics at once. The reason being, which mic are they hearing in their headphones? I prefer one at a time so the artist can interact with the mic and see if that affects their performance. That's how I do it when auditioning mics for a vocalist in the studio. How someone interacts with the mic(by what they are hearing) is a huge deal to me. When I've done my shootouts (in threads on this site), I'm listening to ALL of the mics in my headphones at the same time. And in those shootouts, I'm a bit farther away--certainly not 4-8". More like 18". And I try very, very hard to not advantage one mic over another in terms of placement. I'd rather they ALL be in a somewhat compromised position than giving an advantage to one over another. But point well taken. In a world where one is actually using mics for a real recording, one varies the distance based on proximity effect for that particular mic. When my Serrano 87 has less bottom end than my Soyuz, I naturally (without even thinking about it) consider moving the Serrano a little closer if I want more bottom end (assuming cardioid or figure-8 pattern, of course). Or using a different preamp. Or different EQ. No perfect way to do a shootout, that's for sure. |
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Post by OtisGreying on Aug 12, 2021 0:45:39 GMT -6
I mean listening to the clips closely I can tell most of if not all of the variance on the serranos phase-like sound, sounds exactly like what happens when you go too far off axis on a mic. Bummer cause I was definitely curious how it would fare but it just doesn’t appear to be a very fair test for the serrano. It seems like the Stam was positioned well enough to be judged and I thought the Stam sounded pretty good. And I’ve never really cared for warm products.
And doing a quick test with my Serrano - which I think sounds great, just 2 inches high on the axis makes it sounds wildly different. Phasey, smeared top. Whereas dead on sounds totally great with way more weight and clarity.
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Post by Vincent R. on Aug 12, 2021 4:50:48 GMT -6
I hate singing over the top of my MK U67 or U87ai. The sound becomes thin and bright, so the point is well made. In fact, I find those mics sound best when you sing directly into them straight on. With my FleA 49 this is not the case. I often raise it slightly above me and aim it down.
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Post by enlav on Aug 12, 2021 8:03:09 GMT -6
While I don't trust (100%) the veracity of the noise floor test towards the end of the video (not questioning the engineer's intentions, more the nature of the test and all the variables), I do have to say that - damn - the noise on some is pretty rough. Echoing others statements regarding placement and on/off axis response coloring the results - if you go through the Stam and Serrano in particular, you can hear points where the high frequency focus changes from mic to mic at times which more or less implies to me that the singer is moving just enough to get closer to on-axis to one and off- on the other. My biggest takeaways - IF this is the Warm WA87 R2 it seems like an improvement over the original (or I may have been too harsh on shootouts with the first version). The noise floor test was a little alarming (I need to note I'm listening on Grado SR80e's so I'm sure I'm missing the full scope/spectrum of noise), but to reiterate my previous point -- there are too few details about the test environment, and the nature of this test doesn't warrant total confidence in any "problem solving" conducted in trying to minimize or isolate extraneous noise from the microphones.
This all goes without saying that a shoot out on one source alone only gives us one perspective to the microphone, but I'm probably singing to the choir here.
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