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Post by Guitar on May 31, 2021 11:00:38 GMT -6
Listened about 8 times while reading this thread. First of all ITB is quieter than the other two, putting it at immediate disadvantage.
Snare and guitars sound best on the Helios mix. Sounds like more reverb, longer tail, brighter tops, just a better mix.
I really like the ITB mix but I think it needs a little more work. More saturation, more tops, 'exciter' type plugins even maybe. This is the tightest sounding mix, makes the OTB sound a tiny bit softened.
Not sure which kick sounds the best. ITB kick has the most punch, Helios mix has the most subs, choose your poison.
I would wager you could get all three to work if you mixed with the intent of mastering and release.
Thanks for doing this, I've been dreaming someone would do this kind of shootout, guess my dream came true today.
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Post by Mister Chase on May 31, 2021 11:23:54 GMT -6
Listened about 8 times while reading this thread. First of all ITB is quieter than the other two, putting it at immediate disadvantage. Snare and guitars sound best on the Helios mix. Sounds like more reverb, longer tail, brighter tops, just a better mix. I really like the ITB mix but I think it needs a little more work. More saturation, more tops, 'exciter' type plugins even maybe. This is the tightest sounding mix, makes the OTB sound a tiny bit softened. Not sure which kick sounds the best. ITB kick has the most punch, Helios mix has the most subs, choose your poison. I would wager you could get all three to work if you mixed with the intent of mastering and release. Thanks for doing this, I've been dreaming someone would do this kind of shootout, guess my dream came true today. You'll have to find a new reason to live...
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Post by Guitar on May 31, 2021 11:29:59 GMT -6
You'll have to find a new reason to live...
memorial day enchiladas... can't wait!
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Post by Mister Chase on May 31, 2021 11:31:45 GMT -6
You'll have to find a new reason to live...
memorial day enchiladas... can't wait!
You are highly adaptable. Well done.
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Post by Chad on May 31, 2021 14:28:45 GMT -6
My first impression of the "In the Box" mix:
"Hmm... Sounds muffled like my cassette deck did when I was in high school and I hit the Dolby B button"
My impression of the "Helios / Out of the Box" mix:
"Sounds like a finished album."
First impressions, really.
Then, I went and listened to the 2-Bus version. I thought it sounded MUCH closer to the OTB mix than the ITB mix after one listen. I still prefer the Helios/OTB.
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Post by nobtwiddler on May 31, 2021 17:37:01 GMT -6
"Then, I went and listened to the 2-Bus version. I thought it sounded MUCH closer to the OTB mix than the ITB mix after one listen" (and possibly with a bit more work it could sound as good? ) Who knows ... Maybe, .... it is after all like mixing thru a console.
" I still prefer the Helios / OTB."
ME TOOOOOO!
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Post by yotonic on May 31, 2021 18:31:07 GMT -6
I wish the recording industry had taken a different turn, and we were listening to full albums made with outboard gear and budgets that made Steely Dan sound like a muffled cassette. Instead silicon valley decimated this industry and we are listening to the cheapest, quickest, easiest way to "produce" music. I never thought I'd see the day when people thought music wasn't worth paying for, and rock stars were a thing of the past.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2021 7:56:48 GMT -6
I wish the recording industry had taken a different turn, and we were listening to full albums made with outboard gear and budgets that made Steely Dan sound like a muffled cassette. Instead silicon valley decimated this industry and we are listening to the cheapest, quickest, easiest way to "produce" music. I never thought I'd see the day when people thought music wasn't worth paying for, and rock stars were a thing of the past. This really hit home over the past twenty years, at one point (around 2001(ish)) even a mediocre band could walk into a packed open mic night and find some fans. A decade later and most rock / live music venue's had shut down altogether, the few that will allow bands on generally play to empty crowds or their friends. You'd expect the bigger label bands to still prosper wouldn't you? Well quite a few of the larger city centre venue's also closed because they weren't anymore which is a massive shame. I really do miss playing live, it has to be my favourite part of this entire endeavour. Although the cost vs. quality improvements over the last couple of decades have also been welcome. There are many out there that would love or have a decent OTB chain and today it's more affordable than ever (not cheap mind due but better )..
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Post by yotonic on Jun 1, 2021 20:12:39 GMT -6
I'm actually in the live venue business, I own a 1000 cap room and have acts like Guster, Umphreys McGee, Blackberry Smoke, Lettuce, Ministry, Lanco, Yonder Mountain String Band, Gary Allan, Bleachers, Brothers Osborne, In Flames, Judith Hill, and Jacob Collier sell out my room and it's still a financial grind in today's music business. It costs a small fortune to build out a venue the way Bands and Agents want it, and they leave very little meat on the bone contractually to pay the bills, and your team. If I didn't have some deep connection to the music and the historical significance of what we do, I would walk away. A lot like touring, it's physically taxing, but there is some unspoken connection with your co-workers, customers, and Artists, that makes it more purposeful than the P&L alone.
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Post by drumsound on Jun 1, 2021 22:14:36 GMT -6
there’s a few things that jump out at me, the main one is how the upper highs sound ITB that bothers me. The kick also sounds like some kind of latency or disconnect, plugin artifact kind of thing. I’m aware of these things because I’ve spent many years dealing with those two things and trying to make them passable. For some reason the ITB made me think the drummer is off. But maybe it was fixed for the other versions? Also crash cymbal wash ITB sounds flat and just not ringing out nicely, but the others it’s better, incredibly better on the Helios. That could be because doing EQ moves in analog is incredibly easy to access and super fast so you dial it better? I personally think it’s the topology doing it’s thing though. Thanks for sharing! I hear that on all the mixes. There are some odd things happening in the grace notes and the pickup on the BD. I think the ITB mix has the drums more out front and makes it less noticeable. It made them all a little hard for me to focus on the other aspects. That said... I felt the 2buss+ glued things better then the straight ITB mix and the tone of the Helios/Neve mix was deeper and more pleasing. @nobwittler Thanks for doing and sharing this!!! Is the ITB mix just literally a stereo out from the DAW with plugins? And then the 2buss+ is the same plugins and balance, but summed and using some sort of the "mix sweetening" features of the unit? And the Analog has analog EQ and compression, and I assume fader balance, right? Is there anything on the 2-mix of the analog mix?
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Post by nobtwiddler on Jun 2, 2021 5:48:37 GMT -6
Hey Tony... Yeah this was done very quick, so there is a get opening and closing incorrectly, and some other artifacts that I just didn't have the time to adjust and or fix. As I just wanted to get the 3 versions done. If I do this again, I will do proper mixes, and spend more than 30 minutes on each version.
Now that being said, ITB = is just that, plugs on the channels, and stereo out. 2BUSS+ = Same but routed thru the unit, and making adjustments, for levels, balance, etc. because of the tonal shaping options included in that unit. Helios = re-routed again, using the type 69's into the 8816, all reverb returns went thru the API 8200A, and then out to a TC finalizer, for a little level control, NO EQ~! And then digitally into one of the Apollo X16 units to print.
To the point of doing this type of comparison again, but more accurately... How would you guys do it?
ITB is easy, use the plugs, and put nothing on the stereo out. Done
2BUSS+, now this gets a bit more complicated, because of the Harmonix, & the Para-Limit functions which I use all the time, as well as the Transformer option.
Do I shut off these type of plugs I used while ITB, and now use the 2BUS+ versions, or...keep what I had ITB, and shut off the 2BUSS+ options?
Remote rig mix, now what? Haha Once again, should I turn off all the ITB stuff, and go for a totally Analog mix, and or just re-route the ITB mix with plugs into the Helios / Neve / API
Not sure there is really a fair way to do this, to get a real feel for what each piece can bring to the table. A Apple to Apples comparison, is impossible.
Any thoughts?
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Post by Guitar on Jun 2, 2021 6:19:37 GMT -6
I would add some harmonics and some kind of limiting, with plugins on the mix bus of the ITB mix, if you didn't, to get a little closer. Perhaps a transformer plugin as well. I don't know if you have the UAD Helios plugin, but that might come in handy here, too.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2021 16:58:09 GMT -6
"Then, I went and listened to the 2-Bus version. I thought it sounded MUCH closer to the OTB mix than the ITB mix after one listen" (and possibly with a bit more work it could sound as good? ) Who knows ... Maybe, .... it is after all like mixing thru a console. " I still prefer the Helios / OTB." ME TOOOOOO! I'm going to add to that notion, the Helios sounded the best.
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