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Post by nobtwiddler on May 30, 2021 13:27:46 GMT -6
OK guys, so here ya go... I know the mixes are slightly different, but what they hell, I did this in less then two hours right after tracking. Pain in the ass reassigning all the outputs, match levels between formats, then trying to match plug ins with the actual hardware. I got close ... maybe? It's just a quick glance into the differences between mix methods. The fact that they are MP3's make comparing even less accurate but....whatever. All tracked to Radar. 24/48 Files brought into LUNA, - In the Box - 2BUSS + and then thru my little remote mixer rig, - Helios / Neve / API When using the Remote rig for that particular mix, I turned off as many of the plug Ins as I could, and just use the outboard EQ's and compressors, usually using the same model and settings, but only in hardware! Although hardly scientific, maybe it can shed some light on the over sonic differences, height, width, and weight of each unit. The fact is, I had a few hours free, so there ya go.. Enjoy.
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Post by bricejchandler on May 30, 2021 13:36:37 GMT -6
Wow it sounds a million times better through the remote rig!
I think you'd be able to get a lot closer with the plug ins though but it also shows one thing, it's easier to get a great sounding quick mix with analog, which has always been my experience too.
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Post by phantom on May 30, 2021 14:04:08 GMT -6
Interesting.
The 2Buss+ almost sound like a completely different mix. It's wider, but brings the hihats too much for my taste, it sounds unbalanced overall. It's the exact same mix as the ITB?
The Remote rig one sounds the best for sure. Yes, it's brither and fatter, and you can bring the ITB closer to it with some eq moves, but the sense of space and the deep low end will be hard to match.
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Post by Mister Chase on May 30, 2021 14:12:28 GMT -6
Yowza. That Helios rig mix is like music.
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Post by Tbone81 on May 30, 2021 14:42:27 GMT -6
Only listened on earbuds but I liked the 2 bus+ best. But levels did sound pretty different between the three.
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Post by nobtwiddler on May 30, 2021 19:14:49 GMT -6
After doing this procedure about ten times in the last few years, Setting up and mixing, ITB, 2BUSS+, The VTC Console, and my Remote rig,
Although very quickly done, I totally agree with this quote above from Brice
"I think you'd be able to get a lot closer with the plug ins though but it also shows one thing, it's easier to get a great sounding quick mix with analog, which has always been my experience too."
This has been my experience 100% the time!
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Post by wiz on May 30, 2021 19:20:28 GMT -6
After doing this procedure about ten times in the last few years, Setting up and mixing, ITB, 2BUSS+, The VTC Console, and my Remote rig, Although very quickly done, I totally agree with this quote above from Brice "I think you'd be able to get a lot closer with the plug ins though but it also shows one thing, it's easier to get a great sounding quick mix with analog, which has always been my experience too." This has been my experience 100% the time! Is the 2 Buss, just the ITB mix passed through the Dangerous? or an different ITB mix using the 2 Buss during mixing? cheers Wiz
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Post by nobtwiddler on May 30, 2021 19:31:49 GMT -6
Hey Wiz, I re-routed all the output channels, and made quick adjustments to what the ITB mix was. You actually can't do an exact 1 for 1 mix because the 2Buss + has some processing. I mean you could, but things would really be askew.
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Post by wiz on May 30, 2021 19:34:45 GMT -6
Hey Wiz, I re-routed all the output channels, and made quick adjustments to what the ITB mix was. You actually can't do an exact 1 for 1 mix because the 2Buss + has some processing. I mean you could, but things would really be askew. thanks for that... I enjoyed all three....but I must say, for dollars, and time.... the ITB/2 Buss was the winner for me...especially if you are under the pump. cheers and great work Wiz
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2021 22:13:54 GMT -6
1. Helios. Cool distortion on guitars that makes them pop out of the monitors. Very nice thickening of the kick. Sounds done. 2. ITB. Guitars boring. Kicks solid. Most detail retained in drumming. Guitars need an extra well chosen plug or two. More processing needed than the Helios to cross the finish line. It doesn't have to be an analog ersatz either. Very distant 3. 2BUS+. I hate what this did to the kick. This feels like it creates more work than just staying ITB or sticking to your remote rig.
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Post by stormymondays on May 31, 2021 2:24:30 GMT -6
Do you have a pic of the remote rig? Or just give us an overview of what you are using?
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Post by bricejchandler on May 31, 2021 5:45:13 GMT -6
After doing this procedure about ten times in the last few years, Setting up and mixing, ITB, 2BUSS+, The VTC Console, and my Remote rig, Although very quickly done, I totally agree with this quote above from Brice "I think you'd be able to get a lot closer with the plug ins though but it also shows one thing, it's easier to get a great sounding quick mix with analog, which has always been my experience too." This has been my experience 100% the time! I don't have anywhere near the experience you do but what I notice when I'm mixing analog is that I make bolder choices because I'm able to push things further, more low end, more high end, more compression before things start sounding bad. I'm agressive with my boosts and cuts which helps create space. I'm sure defenders of ITB would argue that the reason you got a good sounding mix OTB faster is just because you as a mixer have more experience working that way, and that is definitely one of the factors at play but in my case, ergonomics also play a huge role, it's not just about the sound. Having everything quickly at the tip of your fingers, being able to easily move/eq things simultaneously, not having a million options, I tend to focus exclusively on the music when working that way, I get more immersed in it. I usually try to have a template ITB to simulate an OTB workflow to work faster, with the same channel strip on everything channel but I still haven't been able to work as fast.
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Post by nobtwiddler on May 31, 2021 6:08:04 GMT -6
Everyone's ears are different. We all hear things differently, and gravitate towards certain sounds that appeal to us, that maybe someone else doesn't like. And that's the beauty in having choices.
But for me, and it might be simply due to 46 years of mixing thru a Analog console, with lots of outboard, that I lean in that direction. Once again, I've spent days on a few ITB mixes, and I thought they sounded great. BUT if I tried a Console mix, I would be shocked in the difference.
Now, here's a thought, We all know that there's a lot of famous engineers mixing quite successfully ITB, and their mixes sound great! We also know most of them are doing so, literally because of Recall...and that makes total sense I get it.
Funny thing is, did any of them ever take a song mixed ITB, and do a fully Analog console mix of the same tune for comparison? Like I did ... but for real???
Boy I'd love to hear that!
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Post by bricejchandler on May 31, 2021 6:18:08 GMT -6
CLA did it a couple years back.
He did a mix on his SSL and then the same one with plugins, trying to showcase a plugin he collaborated on, I don't remember which one and anyway all I remember thinking was that it wasn't a very good ad for the plugins.
The SSL mix sounded quite a bit better.
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Post by nobtwiddler on May 31, 2021 6:29:00 GMT -6
Hey Stormy, Attached is a few photos of one of my Remote recording Rigs I built. Each rig is comprised of 6 racks. The three slanted racks on top, and the 3 base racks. I have 2 complete systems, (12 racks) one is here at my place set up in my little room, as my console & cabling won't fit, so I'm using one of these at the moment, and the other is still on rental in a friends great room, where he uses it to cut tracks. (that one is also listed for sale) I designed and built these out of the desire to get out of the studio and have the ability to record in different locations / environments so to speak. Not for live in the club type of work, more often used when someone sets up camp in a rented space for a month or so. As a teenager I was completely amazed that more than half of the records I loved were of British Rock Bands, and most of those records were recorded using a Helios Console! And quite a few were recorded outside of a typical studio, using a remote recording vehicle, and those also had Helios consoles installed... So that was the impetus for this setup. Where I live there are many, unused Estates, Barns, Grange Halls, Churches etc... And this is where this system comes into play. Left Rack houses the Radar 6, and a folding screen that you cannot see in the photos, it pulls out in front of the Radar! Middle Rack is the 8 Helios type 69, mic pre / Eq's, the API, 8200A, which is used to sum tracks to gather while tracking, or used as 8 extra returns if mixing...And then the Neve 8816, which is usually used for monitoring while tracking, and in my case was the main mixer, for the mix I posted... Right Rack, house another 8 Helios type 69's, but I've popped 2 out, and replaced them with 2 x 760 limiters...for mixing... Below that are 4 x Shadow Hills, Mono Optograph, limiters, and a Dual Vandagraph stereo limiter. You can't see in the photos, but there is complete, 96 point "TT" patchbay atop the racks towards the rear so patching in / out of all this gear is relatively simple. Once arriving at a location, setup, other then mic's in and such, usually takes about 30 minutes. The lower racks house the 2 Genelecs, as well as all the snakes and cabling to wire it all together. There is also, another rack, with 4 x UA X interfaces, if someone wants that instead of the Radar? Attachments:
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Post by stormymondays on May 31, 2021 7:12:17 GMT -6
Amazing stuff!!!!! Thanks for sharing.
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Post by nobtwiddler on May 31, 2021 7:29:58 GMT -6
"CLA did it a couple years back.
He did a mix on his SSL and then the same one with plugins, trying to showcase a plugin he collaborated on, I don't remember which one and anyway all I remember thinking was that it wasn't a very good ad for the plugins.
The SSL mix sounded quite a bit better."
There ya go... Exactly my point~!
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2021 7:50:56 GMT -6
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Post by Ward on May 31, 2021 8:08:10 GMT -6
First of all, beautiful work. But I would expect nothing less. It is incredible what passing a mix through different 2-buss or your outboard grab-n-go rig can do to the overall balance and tone. Electric gitars sound fantastic with the Helios/Neve/API rig but acoustic guitars seem to present best in the ITB presentation. bricejchandler and I agree that the plugz ITB could be tailored enough to get close to analog. At least 90%. But sadly, dan and I are completely at odds about what's happening with the Kickdrum So as an aside . . . The hardest thing I have to get past is the somewhat boxy quality of the kickdrum - the 2-buss just about took care of that. Otherwise, the old 325-350 narrow slicing might be necessary. Even a little dip around 450-500. But that's a minute quibble only, and totally down to taste. I'm somewhere between Terry Brown (who I worked with) and Bob Rock on kick-drum carving.
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Post by christopher on May 31, 2021 8:42:28 GMT -6
there’s a few things that jump out at me, the main one is how the upper highs sound ITB that bothers me. The kick also sounds like some kind of latency or disconnect, plugin artifact kind of thing. I’m aware of these things because I’ve spent many years dealing with those two things and trying to make them passable. For some reason the ITB made me think the drummer is off. But maybe it was fixed for the other versions? Also crash cymbal wash ITB sounds flat and just not ringing out nicely, but the others it’s better, incredibly better on the Helios. That could be because doing EQ moves in analog is incredibly easy to access and super fast so you dial it better? I personally think it’s the topology doing it’s thing though. Thanks for sharing!
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Post by Mister Chase on May 31, 2021 8:57:50 GMT -6
Everyone's ears are different. We all hear things differently, and gravitate towards certain sounds that appeal to us, that maybe someone else doesn't like. And that's the beauty in having choices. But for me, and it might be simply due to 46 years of mixing thru a Analog console, with lots of outboard, that I lean in that direction. Once again, I've spent days on a few ITB mixes, and I thought they sounded great. BUT if I tried a Console mix, I would be shocked in the difference. Now, here's a thought, We all know that there's a lot of famous engineers mixing quite successfully ITB, and their mixes sound great! We also know most of them are doing so, literally because of Recall...and that makes total sense I get it. Funny thing is, did any of them ever take a song mixed ITB, and do a fully Analog console mix of the same tune for comparison? Like I did ... but for real??? Boy I'd love to hear that! Andrew Scheps did two mixes, one OTB one ITB for puremix. I'll have to go back and listen. I think it was a Ziggy Marley track called Fly Rasta.
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Post by bricejchandler on May 31, 2021 10:18:43 GMT -6
Everyone's ears are different. We all hear things differently, and gravitate towards certain sounds that appeal to us, that maybe someone else doesn't like. And that's the beauty in having choices. But for me, and it might be simply due to 46 years of mixing thru a Analog console, with lots of outboard, that I lean in that direction. Once again, I've spent days on a few ITB mixes, and I thought they sounded great. BUT if I tried a Console mix, I would be shocked in the difference. Now, here's a thought, We all know that there's a lot of famous engineers mixing quite successfully ITB, and their mixes sound great! We also know most of them are doing so, literally because of Recall...and that makes total sense I get it. Funny thing is, did any of them ever take a song mixed ITB, and do a fully Analog console mix of the same tune for comparison? Like I did ... but for real??? Boy I'd love to hear that! Andrew Scheps did two mixes, one OTB one ITB for puremix. I'll have to go back and listen. I think it was a Ziggy Marley track called Fly Rasta. I'd like to hear that! I've heard some good ITB by Scheps and some stuff that I didn't think was that great. I remember listening to Green Day Revolution Radio, and thinking, wow this has that midrange thing I don't like that I often struggle with ITB. I put American Idiot right after it and BOOM, more punch, bigger.
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Post by Mister Chase on May 31, 2021 10:28:40 GMT -6
Andrew Scheps did two mixes, one OTB one ITB for puremix. I'll have to go back and listen. I think it was a Ziggy Marley track called Fly Rasta. I'd like to hear that! I've heard some good ITB by Scheps and some stuff that I didn't think was that great. I remember listening to Green Day Revolution Radio, and thinking, wow this has that midrange thing I don't like that I often struggle with ITB. I put American Idiot right after it and BOOM, more punch, bigger. I think such a huge problem is that our ears grow accustomed to things very quickly, so those things that are issues ITB kind of beat us down and after a while in a mix you don't notice them as much and they make it to the end of the mix.
I think analog probably just helps you out from minute 1 and makes a lot of that stuff a non-issue. I'm just pontificating though because I've rarely worked analog and never did a whole song that way!
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Post by Mister Chase on May 31, 2021 10:38:48 GMT -6
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Post by swillis on May 31, 2021 10:42:08 GMT -6
There’s an effortlessness to the remote rig I really like compared to the ITB one. Doesn’t sound like a lot has been done to it, it just sounds right. That Helios rig is killer, some day I’d like to make a poor mans version of this using Daking strips or something similar.
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