|
Post by gouge on May 29, 2021 5:10:36 GMT -6
i've been looking at a bunch of gear mods online and it seems there is one thing they all have in common.
they don't publish any before and after test results.
anyone know someone that does mods and provides technical data to back up their mods.
|
|
|
Post by svart on May 29, 2021 6:16:46 GMT -6
i've been looking at a bunch of gear mods online and it seems there is one thing they all have in common. they don't publish any before and after test results. anyone know someone that does mods and provides technical data to back up their mods. In my opinion, half or more of them don't work as well as they're claimed. For every person that claims they hear a difference, there's another that says they don't. If not everyone can hear the difference, and the difference is not so obvious that everyone can hear it, is it really worth trying to make an example of? If the mods were as obvious as the marketing claims, there would be obvious examples posted everywhere on their sites. The best thing about being a modder is that folks automatically think you know something they don't. You then get to claim that you have golden ears and that anyone who doesn't hear a difference doesn't know what they're listening for or can't hear it.. which reinforces the golden ear'd expert mythos.. to which I saw again, if a regular Joe can't hear it, is it really doing anything special?
|
|
|
Post by yotonic on May 29, 2021 6:20:45 GMT -6
I still feel guilty for the “Gotham Mod” I inflicted on a perfectly fine Neumann U87i. Made a wonderful microphone less musical.
|
|
|
Post by Chad on May 29, 2021 6:38:24 GMT -6
I agree 100% with what svart said. I would open up this conversation wider and say... I think it’s easy to sell almost anything in the pro audio gear industry when you can get away with only using words: A technical description, laced with buzzwords that feed our desire such as “warm, gooey, sheen, smooth, buttery, immaculate, crunchy, silky, punchy, hairy, etc.” Back on the topic of mods: For what it’s worth, a few years ago I purchased a vintage DBX 118 that was modded by Revive Audio. It’s wonderfully pure sounding and has a fantastic dbx attitude to it (oops — there I go with buzzwords again — ha). I don’t imagine selling it. I had a chance to compare it to an unmodded yet fully functional and “minty” (in appearance) DBX 118, and that unit had a similar sound and action to it, only it was much noisier. It was probably passable for some users but i really heard a difference between modded and unmodded in that case.
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on May 29, 2021 6:38:29 GMT -6
There are very few mods that are worth the effort or expense. The best thing to do, is to do them yourself.
Ones I like: Ribbon mic mods, Apex 460 rebuild/redesign, simple upgrades to SDC mics like Oktava.
Had a lot of mixed luck with "cheap compressor upgrades," guitar pedal mods, and etc.
I wouldn't pay for any of them. DIY is the only option I'd consider.
|
|
|
Post by svart on May 29, 2021 6:59:31 GMT -6
I'm probably more guilty than anyone else at trying mods over the years.
Almost all mods I've done eventually got reverted back to stock unless it was fixing a design flaw, which I consider different than "modding" anyway.
Honestly, I struggle to remember any mods I did that I've retained for any particular reason besides something like building a C12 out of an apex460.. but that wasn't really to improve the 460, the 460 just served as a donor for body and parts.
I totally fell for the notion that a few parts changes could catapult my sound beyond that of my peers.
I was wrong, and I spent years focusing on the gear mods instead of learning the skills better and I regret the tailspin it put me in.
I also feel bad for all the folks I see doing the same things I was doing, but just like me, they ignore the wisdom of the ones who've been through it while they forge ahead believing they'll be the ones who game the system with cheap gear and shortcuts to award winning mixes.
Forget the mods. Focus on the mixes. Nobody hears the mods or the gear, they hear the mix.
|
|
|
Post by rowmat on May 29, 2021 7:21:19 GMT -6
It depends on the mod. Replacing an opamp used as a buffer in an audio circuit with an opamp that can pass video frequencies is not going to improve the audio and will likely make things worse due to instability and possibly even RF issues. However replacing a 50 year old 741 opamp in the high frequency stage of an EQ with something with a higher GBW may sound decidedly better (and quieter) when adding 10db of boost at 16khz.
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on May 29, 2021 7:27:18 GMT -6
Define “mod”.....I think that’s part of the problem, it’s less specific than it should be, kind of like ad copy. Someone mentioned ad copy that’s a mix of tech description and buzz words....I honestly don’t see much ad copy that makes any technical sense at all, usually obvious errors and mistruths at best.
|
|
|
Post by rowmat on May 29, 2021 7:36:23 GMT -6
Define “mod”.....I think that’s part of the problem, it’s less specific than it should be, kind of like ad copy. Someone mentioned ad copy that’s a mix of tech description and buzz words....I honestly don’t see much ad copy that makes any technical sense at all, usually obvious errors and mistruths at best. I would call a “mod” as being an alteration to the original circuit/design. In the case of replacing a 741 opamp in the EQ circuit with a higher spec opamp I would call that an upgrade probably rather than a “mod”.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 29, 2021 8:40:52 GMT -6
svart agreed. The sound of the gear is often a holistic thing. They are often voiced around the sound of particular parts in the circuit such as the DBX and LA whatever power supplies, TL071 or NE5532 distortion, the DBX VCA modulation distortion, Burr Brown opamp sound, etc. swapping these out for “better” alternatives often ruins what is good or interesting about something. Then there is gear that get much more usable with mods without real changing the sound too much like Jim William’s Adcom mods mainly just clean up the low end, just outright buying a better power supply for certain pieces, swapping out busted junk caps for more reliable parts in plate amps and mass produced cheap modern gear, but these aren’t really mods more than overcoming the cost reductions of the designs to make the gear more usable and reliable.
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on May 29, 2021 8:45:00 GMT -6
Define “mod”.....I think that’s part of the problem, it’s less specific than it should be, kind of like ad copy. Someone mentioned ad copy that’s a mix of tech description and buzz words....I honestly don’t see much ad copy that makes any technical sense at all, usually obvious errors and mistruths at best. I would call a “mod” as being an alteration to the original circuit/design. In the case of replacing a 741 opamp in the EQ circuit with a higher spec opamp I would call that an upgrade probably rather than a “mod”. Yep. I 'mod' vintage compressors and other things to have feature sets the originals did not. I 'upgrade' parts in those same pieces to either replace tired and out of spec parts with fresh ones, possibly with an eye towards a sonic character (very subtle), possibly just to make the damn thing work properly. I generally don't 'upgrade' or 'mod' things that are worth less than what my parts and labor bill will be to the customer.
|
|
|
Post by craigmorris74 on May 29, 2021 9:42:15 GMT -6
Agreed with most of what's said here about mod hype. The best mod I ever did was replacing the entire input section of an ART VLA with some Stancor transformers. It's still a VLA, but without the cheap crunch on the front end and measurably better frequency response.
And since I'm a transformer psycho, I also replaced the input section on a A/D converter with transformers with fabulous and measurable results.
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on May 29, 2021 9:47:15 GMT -6
In the back of my mind, I've had modding/upgrading my Oktava 219 by... Upgrading the the electronics to "current" Oktava standards. Then that whole caulking it, and possibly taking the resonators out. But I'm going to take some time to hear it, on different songs/keys first. Not touching my 319, cool as is! Chris EDIT: Raw 219 Vocal clip example. Through UA Volt with Vintage button on.
|
|
|
Post by craigmorris74 on May 29, 2021 9:55:10 GMT -6
P.S. Not touching my 319, cool as is! Good choice.
|
|
|
Post by drbill on May 29, 2021 9:58:03 GMT -6
Mods overall have been great for me. Best and most "worth it" have been console power supply mods. Second have been mic mods. With the Aphex 205's with Ludahls and new ribbons being at the top of the list, along with the Innertube U87 mod. None of those were subtle or took golden ears to hear.
|
|
|
Post by craigmorris74 on May 29, 2021 10:01:37 GMT -6
I forgot modding the cheap ribbons. Definitely worth it.
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on May 29, 2021 10:02:34 GMT -6
Mic 'mods' are certainly less clear in definition. Changing a capsule might be a mod or an upgrade, changing a transformer/capacitor/resistor might be an upgrade, not a mod.
|
|
|
Post by Tbone81 on May 29, 2021 10:32:08 GMT -6
Mods made a lot more sense 10-15 years ago when cheap gear sucked more and good gear was a lot more expensive. I had a Motu 2408 mkii modded by black lion audio, it was a “holy shit” experience. But now even a cheapo $200 interface sounds miles better than those old converters.
A while back I thought about having Shannon mod my Miktek Cv4. Then I got a ADK tc-67 for like $600 and it was so much better than the miktek it was why spend the money? Sold the Miktek and made money on that deal.
Not saying that some gear wouldn’t benefit from mods, or that they don’t have their place. But it’s getting harder and harder to justify the costs of modding most gear.
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on May 29, 2021 11:08:59 GMT -6
FWIW I'm a believer in Klaus modding/upgrading the Neumann's he specializes in. IMHO that's an exception that proves the rule. The best time IMHO for the Oktava's to have been modded, was during the Michael Joly era. Especially during his early/initial pricing. I'm glad Bill Sitler is still an option nowadays, to at least have some basic options. The arrival of the 3U Audio line, gave a lot of people a lot more to think about. And the Roswell Mini's-along with some others... Chris P.S. Heck, I've heard AT 4040's and 4033's sometimes sound great too! (on me the AT4050 is clearly better-darn )
|
|
|
Post by gouge on May 29, 2021 15:25:00 GMT -6
interesting to hear a few define mod and upgrade as different things.
i've had some good outcomes getting gear modded. the jolly mics definitely sounded better. some of my own tinkering has also sounded better. upgrading parts in gain circuits or pre gain has seemed to make a difference.
but. surely the companies doing the mods are testing their mods. take black lion as an example. i can't find any test data to back up their mods. just words. revive are the same. whilst i'm one of those that feels differences can be made why are they not validating their differences.
|
|
|
Post by Tbone81 on May 30, 2021 18:03:54 GMT -6
interesting to hear a few define mod and upgrade as different things. i've had some good outcomes getting gear modded. the jolly mics definitely sounded better. some of my own tinkering has also sounded better. upgrading parts in gain circuits or pre gain has seemed to make a difference. but. surely the companies doing the mods are testing their mods. take black lion as an example. i can't find any test data to back up their mods. just words. revive are the same. whilst i'm one of those that feels differences can be made why are they not validating their differences. Well if you look at the current BLA list of mods, it would seem to imply that there isn’t an interface ever made that is up to their “standards”. I think it’s horse shit. Back in the day they could’ve measured and proven that their mods are worth it (Digi 002’s, early Motu’s etc) but you’re gonna have a hard time proving your mods are worth it on an Antelope interface. So instead you have tell people “it’s like taking a blanket off the speakers”.
|
|
|
Post by WKG on May 31, 2021 6:16:08 GMT -6
A few years back I had BLA do their signature mod on a Digi 003r and it was a noticeable difference. I replaced that with an RME UFX and haven't thought about it since. I did do the lundahl transformer swap on a few Apex 205's and it was pretty significant, I'd do that again.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,967
|
Post by ericn on May 31, 2021 9:42:32 GMT -6
Everything is built to a price point, often swapping a few parts on a piece you already own is a bargain for the improvement you get. The thing is you have to justify the investment vs the loss of warranty and in most cases the fact that you will won’t see any return on the money you invested in the mod. The market looks at gear mods just like a set of carbon rims and a wing on a Honda Civic, it’s still a Civic.
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on May 31, 2021 10:24:40 GMT -6
Most accordingly. Chris
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on May 31, 2021 11:13:47 GMT -6
Before there was a Samar product line, Mark built me a pair of mics and chopped two more to make a stereo mic. He used Stellar RM-3 bodies, but his ribbons, resonators, and transformers. I would call those custom builds using some existing frameworks.
|
|