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Post by johneppstein on May 31, 2021 13:21:49 GMT -6
In my opinion, half or more of them don't work as well as they're claimed. For every person that claims they hear a difference, there's another that says they don't. If not everyone can hear the difference, and the difference is not so obvious that everyone can hear it, is it really worth trying to make an example of? If the mods were as obvious as the marketing claims, there would be obvious examples posted everywhere on their sites. The best thing about being a modder is that folks automatically think you know something they don't. You then get to claim that you have golden ears and that anyone who doesn't hear a difference doesn't know what they're listening for or can't hear it.. which reinforces the golden ear'd expert mythos.. to which I saw again, if a regular Joe can't hear it, is it really doing anything special? In general I'm inclined to agree with a lot of that - except for the bit at the end, which, if you think about it, depends entirely on how wooden-eared the listener might be. And when you get to a site like "slutz" the wooden-eared are plentiful.
So the answer to your final question chould be "Yes, maybe", and remember that such effects are cumulative.
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Post by chessparov on Jun 1, 2021 0:29:05 GMT -6
I went back and experimented with an Oktava 219 clip, that I had a typical "essy" issue with (this specific 219). Back then I usually recorded with Bremmers MultiTrackStudio (nice DAW for tech Simpletons like me! ) I still like it quite a bit. Their stock De-Esser seemed somewhat (but not enough) effective. Anyway, I ran it through BandLab's/Cakewalk's stock de-esser. Then added a dash of their stock LA2A Plugin. I think it sounds acceptable now! IMHO no 219 modding needed. Vocal clip below... Chris P.S. Beginning to understand the lure, of the vocal LA2A style sound.
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Post by kaleida on Jun 1, 2021 1:35:57 GMT -6
Everything is built to a price point, often swapping a few parts on a piece you already own is a bargain for the improvement you get. The thing is you have to justify the investment vs the loss of warranty and in most cases the fact that you will won’t see any return on the money you invested. I’ve had some positive experiences upgrading parts on used prosumer mics I picked up for (relatively) cheap. Swapping out capsules has consistently been the most significant change; tubes and minor circuit mods second and third. What’s been most impressive to my ears are the cumulative effects - bringing a few key components up to snuff really seems to make more of a total improvement than the sum of the parts. It’s definitely taught me to think of mics as systems, respect the intention behind the design, and look for corners that were cut to meet a price point. My approach has been to find mics I like, get to know them in use, and then upgrade components to suit my preferences. That’s a far cry from the Apex donor mods, but to me a safer bet to turn something I already like into a better version of itself that I love. To me, it’s been well worth it and I feel I’ve paid about a third of what I’d have to pay for the real deal while getting very near equivalent quality. My modded mics will be the last things I’d ever sell.
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Post by Guitar on Jun 1, 2021 3:58:11 GMT -6
Everything is built to a price point, often swapping a few parts on a piece you already own is a bargain for the improvement you get. The thing is you have to justify the investment vs the loss of warranty and in most cases the fact that you will won’t see any return on the money you invested. I’ve had some positive experiences upgrading parts on used prosumer mics I picked up for (relatively) cheap. Swapping out capsules has consistently been the most significant change; tubes and minor circuit mods second and third. What’s been most impressive to my ears are the cumulative effects - bringing a few key components up to snuff really seems to make more of a total improvement than the sum of the parts. It’s definitely taught me to think of mics as systems, respect the intention behind the design, and look for corners that were cut to meet a price point. My approach has been to find mics I like, get to know them in use, and then upgrade components to suit my preferences. That’s a far cry from the Apex donor mods, but to me a safer bet to turn something I already like into a better version of itself that I love. To me, it’s been well worth it and I feel I’ve paid about a third of what I’d have to pay for the real deal while getting very near equivalent quality. My modded mics will be the last things I’d ever sell. What mics did you start with? I've had very good luck with the Apex 460 complete rebuilds. Just starting on FET mics now.
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Post by Vincent R. on Jun 1, 2021 4:51:31 GMT -6
I think a lot depends on what you are modding, who is modding it, and what you expect the outcome to be. I had a pair of TNC ACM-1200s (essentially Avantone CV12s) that I had modified by Advanced Audio into their CM12 and CM251 respectively. I don’t know that either microphone became better, just different. Actually, they added a modification to my CM12 that I think was my favorite of all 3 versions of the mic. It was a touch darker than the stock CM12 voicing.
Currently, I’ve been going back and forth with myself on modifying a pair of TNC ACMP-84s I have. They are cheap Neve 1084 clones that I own. Revive Audio said they could fix the popping issue that occurs when you hit the last gain stage. They also advised they would upgrade caps and swap the cheap transformers out with real carnhills. There is a part of me that really wonders how close these would sound to my AMS- Neve 1073DPX if I modded them. Right now they have a brightness to them in comparison. At the same time, it’s hard to sell modified items and make your money back on them. So if it doesn’t work you have an item that will be tricky to sell, if it sells at all.
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Post by kaleida on Jun 1, 2021 16:12:05 GMT -6
I’ve had some positive experiences upgrading parts on used prosumer mics I picked up for (relatively) cheap. Swapping out capsules has consistently been the most significant change; tubes and minor circuit mods second and third. What’s been most impressive to my ears are the cumulative effects - bringing a few key components up to snuff really seems to make more of a total improvement than the sum of the parts. It’s definitely taught me to think of mics as systems, respect the intention behind the design, and look for corners that were cut to meet a price point. My approach has been to find mics I like, get to know them in use, and then upgrade components to suit my preferences. That’s a far cry from the Apex donor mods, but to me a safer bet to turn something I already like into a better version of itself that I love. To me, it’s been well worth it and I feel I’ve paid about a third of what I’d have to pay for the real deal while getting very near equivalent quality. My modded mics will be the last things I’d ever sell. What mics did you start with? I've had very good luck with the Apex 460 complete rebuilds. Just starting on FET mics now. The one that's had the most work (and incrementally, so I could judge each change) so far was a Telefunken AR-51. It was my first semi-serious mic and I got tons of mileage out of it, but it had an edgy / grainy top end to it and very rolled off low end (great when worked close on vocals, but less so for other instruments), so it could be thin and harsh in some cases. I replaced the capsule with a Tim Campbell, which definitely made it smoother, extended the low end, and captured more detail. Then I had some circuit mods done to bring it a little closer to a 251 circuit and that was definitely another step in the right direction frequency-wise, made it a touch darker in the upper mids. Finally I got a GE 5-star 6072 and calibrated the heater bias and that really put it over the top — to my ears that complemented the new capsule by adding depth and saturation that really brought out all the added detail in a more obvious and flattering way. I feel like each individual change was a significant improvement, but all three of those together took it to the same level as the Bock / Upton / Telefunken 251 reissue. I started with a $1200 mic and sunk probably another $800 in parts and labor, but it completely eliminated my GAS for a better 251. I tried out each at VKLA and left feeling totally satisfied with what I already had, which was a very surprising outcome. One interesting comment from my mic tech who did all the upgrades was that he felt the results far exceeded what he was able to achieve by doing the same mods to Avantone CV12s and Apex 460s. I think that also speaks to the "systems" approach - the Telefunken had good metalwork, a great transformer, a cheap but acceptable power supply, etc. Basically okay-to-good components to start with. The main corners they cut were the Chinese capsule and the modern 12AT7 tube, so that's where I decided to focus money / effort and I think it paid off. My success in that one case gave me a lot more confidence, so I put some Neumann capsules in a pair of Stam 67s, which added a lot more midrange detail, and I've also got Neumanns soon going into a Telefunken AK-47 (which will also get the full circuit / new tube treatment to try to get it in the M49b ballpark - didn't love that mic to begin with so we'll see how that goes) and a Heiserman H47tube (which is a great mic as-is, but I feel will benefit from having a hair more upper mids and a hair less air - we'll see if that pans out).
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Post by chessparov on Jun 1, 2021 16:37:19 GMT -6
I kid about my MXL V69, but due to extreme likelihood it's "built to a price"... Including the circuit. That's been my biggest reluctance, to actually upgrading the capsule and toob. Whereas if you take a Rode (less traveled ) for example, that had the circuit largely designed by Jim Williams = "Different Story". Chris
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Post by Guitar on Jun 2, 2021 8:20:59 GMT -6
kaleida would love to shoot out your '251' with mine, in some imaginary scenario. Mine came in under $1,000 for the project, I believe, not sure of the exact number, but it took me a few years to get it right. I've got a JAN GE 6072A, Cinemag output transformer, ADK GK-12d capsule, as the 'big' parts, and the electronics have been carefully tailored along the way. Would love to travel to Nashville and compare it to John Kenn's mic, or something like that, that's a long term goal of mine, to put it up with something expensive, like you did at VK. A more short term goal would be to start the next one, maybe something with a K47 or M7 capsule. Would love to have a mic like that around. Missing that sound. And it's very interesting that you're modding the Heiserman! Would love to hear a before and after.
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Post by kaleida on Jun 2, 2021 17:26:54 GMT -6
kaleida would love to shoot out your '251' with mine, in some imaginary scenario. Mine came in under $1,000 for the project, I believe, not sure of the exact number, but it took me a few years to get it right. I've got a JAN GE 6072A, Cinemag output transformer, ADK GK-12d capsule, as the 'big' parts, and the electronics have been carefully tailored along the way. Would love to travel to Nashville and compare it to John Kenn's mic, or something like that, that's a long term goal of mine, to put it up with something expensive, like you did at VK. A more short term goal would be to start the next one, maybe something with a K47 or M7 capsule. Would love to have a mic like that around. Missing that sound. And it's very interesting that you're modding the Heiserman! Would love to hear a before and after. That sounds like a great mic! If you’re ever in the PNW, get in touch and we’ll do a shootout. I think experimentation and “tuning” a mic not only in terms of choosing complementary components, but also taking into account the variations of the actual, individual components you’re using is key. Two Neumann K67s capsules can have very different frequency responses, for example, so rolling tubes and adjusting circuits differently for each can go a long way in getting a specific sound profile. So it makes sense to me that it would take you a long time to dial it in to your taste! I really respect folks who have the ears, skills and patience to do that - Heiserman included. I’ll share a before and after with you if it’s not too embarrassing.
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gear mods
Jan 17, 2022 15:36:59 GMT -6
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Post by drastic on Jan 17, 2022 15:36:59 GMT -6
In the back of my mind, I've had modding/upgrading my Oktava 219 by... Upgrading the the electronics to "current" Oktava standards. Then that whole caulking it, and possibly taking the resonators out. But I'm going to take some time to hear it, on different songs/keys first. Chris P.S. Not touching my 319, cool as is! So I randomly purchased an old 319 recently and it sounds really fantastic. Only negative is the crazy handling noise from what sounds like a hollow cavity. Any tips on treating that, or was that what you were leaving alone?? Definitely don’t want to screw up the sound!
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,967
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gear mods
Jan 17, 2022 15:55:21 GMT -6
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Post by ericn on Jan 17, 2022 15:55:21 GMT -6
Having owned and used modded gear the first thing is you have to be on the same page as the modder as to why a mod makes it “better”. Lots of things can change the sound, but it’s got to be a change you want! Remember almost everything is built to a price point, so sure in most cases you probably will find in the space between prototype and production changes have probably been made, but how much of a change and if the price of the mod can justify any changes.
You also have to always consider stability, you might be able to get some more headroom or lower distortion but who cares if the thing doesn’t work ?
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Post by svart on Jan 17, 2022 16:18:16 GMT -6
In the back of my mind, I've had modding/upgrading my Oktava 219 by... Upgrading the the electronics to "current" Oktava standards. Then that whole caulking it, and possibly taking the resonators out. But I'm going to take some time to hear it, on different songs/keys first. Chris P.S. Not touching my 319, cool as is! So I randomly purchased an old 319 recently and it sounds really fantastic. Only negative is the crazy handling noise from what sounds like a hollow cavity. Any tips on treating that, or was that what you were leaving alone?? Definitely don’t want to screw up the sound! A layer of thin Dynamat on the inside will deaden the *tink* sound of the body.
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Post by drastic on Jan 17, 2022 17:18:49 GMT -6
So I randomly purchased an old 319 recently and it sounds really fantastic. Only negative is the crazy handling noise from what sounds like a hollow cavity. Any tips on treating that, or was that what you were leaving alone?? Definitely don’t want to screw up the sound! A layer of thin Dynamat on the inside will deaden the *tink* sound of the body. Ahh awesome! Thx for the tip 👍👍
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Post by sean on Jan 17, 2022 17:33:31 GMT -6
I have a lot of pieces modified by Jim Williams. Mostly stuff that doesn’t have “character” to begin with, or has a characteristic I don’t like. For example, LA-4’s. In stock form they roll off the top end the more it compresses…which is maybe something someone likes, but hearing the detail and air disappear once patched in isn’t usually something I want. After he reworks them they still have the same compression characteristic (it has a pretty unique attack and release time) but the tone of the source doesn’t change.
Some pieces of gear change the tone in a cool way (usually harmonic distortion or discrete circuits) and I have plenty of pieces of gear that do that and wouldn’t want to change them…but most things op-amp/chip based around 741’s and similar can be greatly improved by modern components
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Post by mrholmes on Jan 19, 2022 12:17:31 GMT -6
I still feel guilty for the “Gotham Mod” I inflicted on a perfectly fine Neumann U87i. Made a wonderful microphone less musical.
Reading Neumann MOD would make my ALARM BELLS RING.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2022 10:23:59 GMT -6
I have a lot of pieces modified by Jim Williams. Mostly stuff that doesn’t have “character” to begin with, or has a characteristic I don’t like. For example, LA-4’s. In stock form they roll off the top end the more it compresses…which is maybe something someone likes, but hearing the detail and air disappear once patched in isn’t usually something I want. After he reworks them they still have the same compression characteristic (it has a pretty unique attack and release time) but the tone of the source doesn’t change. Some pieces of gear change the tone in a cool way (usually harmonic distortion or discrete circuits) and I have plenty of pieces of gear that do that and wouldn’t want to change them…but most things op-amp/chip based around 741’s and similar can be greatly improved by modern components I agree about modding away undesirable characteristics. The LAs all were limited by their amplification stages but the "filters" of the optical sensors are cool. Often people just want the behavior of the gear without the distortion but often you can't get it without the other like an 1176. Or all digital emulations never seem to work as well as the real things even if they are cleaner like any digital emulation of a vca comp like the DBX and SSL plugs. With that kinda "clean but not clear" cheap/older opamp stuff, I don't even see a point and just buy new stuff. Like it's voiced around whatever ICs they used, they used some cheap stuff, were limited by it, and did the best they could and it either sounds fine, cool, or is junky. It's often just better to something else. Like I've talked a few people out of modding Presonus things. All of their efforts were for nothing because even though it got a little better, it still sucked compared to just saving and buying something better. It's not like anything Presonus sounds cool in anyway like some of the old Tascam and Fostex. There are dudes trying to mod Behringer desks, ART tube stuff, KT clones, etc and there's just zero point beyond making some of it more usable imo (less noise, better stereo matching, etc) because soundwise, well the sound was cooked from the start by the "value engineering"
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gear mods
Jan 20, 2022 14:11:16 GMT -6
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Post by sean on Jan 20, 2022 14:11:16 GMT -6
I have a lot of pieces modified by Jim Williams. Mostly stuff that doesn’t have “character” to begin with, or has a characteristic I don’t like. For example, LA-4’s. In stock form they roll off the top end the more it compresses…which is maybe something someone likes, but hearing the detail and air disappear once patched in isn’t usually something I want. After he reworks them they still have the same compression characteristic (it has a pretty unique attack and release time) but the tone of the source doesn’t change. Some pieces of gear change the tone in a cool way (usually harmonic distortion or discrete circuits) and I have plenty of pieces of gear that do that and wouldn’t want to change them…but most things op-amp/chip based around 741’s and similar can be greatly improved by modern components I agree about modding away undesirable characteristics. The LAs all were limited by their amplification stages but the "filters" of the optical sensors are cool. Often people just want the behavior of the gear without the distortion but often you can't get it without the other like an 1176. Or all digital emulations never seem to work as well as the real things even if they are cleaner like any digital emulation of a vca comp like the DBX and SSL plugs. With that kinda "clean but not clear" cheap/older opamp stuff, I don't even see a point and just buy new stuff. Like it's voiced around whatever ICs they used, they used some cheap stuff, were limited by it, and did the best they could and it either sounds fine, cool, or is junky. It's often just better to something else. Like I've talked a few people out of modding Presonus things. All of their efforts were for nothing because even though it got a little better, it still sucked compared to just saving and buying something better. It's not like anything Presonus sounds cool in anyway like some of the old Tascam and Fostex. There are dudes trying to mod Behringer desks, ART tube stuff, KT clones, etc and there's just zero point beyond making some of it more usable imo (less noise, better stereo matching, etc) because soundwise, well the sound was cooked from the start by the "value engineering"
I agree with this, similar to Soundcraft Ghost and Toft consoles. They are built for a low price point and while they have, on paper, nice features, the pots and faders and circuit boards are all cheap and plastic and bound to fail and those are not fun, easy, or cheap to repair and replace
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