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Post by jcoutu1 on May 11, 2021 10:00:11 GMT -6
I actually picked up a couple snakes and extra long TRS cables for my last session. What a difference. Kind of hating myself for not having done that sooner. Next door to my studio is a spare room that I'm using for scratch vocals and guitar running through an old Onyx mixer that's doubling as a headphone amp for now. I'm planning on spending a few weeks on really optimizing the flow in here. Waiting on my rack to arrive and then it's off to the races on getting things to a new level or organized. Better still save $ learn to solder and DIY your cables. Or, time is money. I wish I had time to solder cables and build kits, but there aren't enough hours in the day for me.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on May 11, 2021 10:32:23 GMT -6
Better still save $ learn to solder and DIY your cables. Or, time is money. I wish I had time to solder cables and build kits, but there aren't enough hours in the day for me. Yea these days I find a 1/2 hour to an hour spent soldering a great way to tune out the world . Great way to relieve stress. Although the cat did manage to knock a mask onto the hot iron, just a very small fire.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on May 11, 2021 11:05:45 GMT -6
I actually picked up a couple snakes and extra long TRS cables for my last session. What a difference. Kind of hating myself for not having done that sooner. Next door to my studio is a spare room that I'm using for scratch vocals and guitar running through an old Onyx mixer that's doubling as a headphone amp for now. I'm planning on spending a few weeks on really optimizing the flow in here. Waiting on my rack to arrive and then it's off to the races on getting things to a new level or organized. Better still save $ learn to solder and DIY your cables. You guys are like mind readers. I just told my wife this morning it's time to learn how to solder and teach myself to do some basic circuit assembly so I can at least attempt some of these DIY kits. Specifically because I like the idea of doing a low stress activity. But usually, time is money is the order of the day for me. I have a day job that I work about 30 hours per week. Add in another 30 hours per week of recording/writing/playing and every spare hour goes to family. And soldering.
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Post by indiehouse on May 11, 2021 11:50:52 GMT -6
Better still save $ learn to solder and DIY your cables. You guys are like mind readers. I just told my wife this morning it's time to learn how to solder and teach myself to do some basic circuit assembly so I can at least attempt some of these DIY kits. Specifically because I like the idea of doing a low stress activity. But usually, time is money is the order of the day for me. I have a day job that I work about 30 hours per week. Add in another 30 hours per week of recording/writing/playing and every spare hour goes to family. And soldering. 30 hours a week recording/writing/playing?!? Dude. I'm so envious. I'm lucky to get 3. I'm not kidding.
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Post by christopher on May 11, 2021 11:53:55 GMT -6
It looks like you need 2 x Fig8 capable LDCs, either tube mics ..or maybe solid state with some thick tube preamps (See Dan Boner’s stuff on YouTube) I’ve used early 2000’s 414 B-ULS which are the flat voiced ones. Those recordings came out good, they always took EQ and processing great. Just boring 414 vibes, not awesome tube mic feeling. A tube pre could possibly fix that. As a vocal mic, looking at a 414 kind of annoys me, it doesn’t feel right. If that were a problem, you could use it further away as a second mic though. Having two fig8 capable mics will open up a lot of possibilities
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Post by gravesnumber9 on May 11, 2021 12:32:36 GMT -6
You guys are like mind readers. I just told my wife this morning it's time to learn how to solder and teach myself to do some basic circuit assembly so I can at least attempt some of these DIY kits. Specifically because I like the idea of doing a low stress activity. But usually, time is money is the order of the day for me. I have a day job that I work about 30 hours per week. Add in another 30 hours per week of recording/writing/playing and every spare hour goes to family. And soldering. 30 hours a week recording/writing/playing?!? Dude. I'm so envious. I'm lucky to get 3. I'm not kidding. Well, I'm one of those people that sleeps like 6 hours max. So I'm able to get three or four hours of mixing/experimenting/re-patching/whatever from like 10pm to 2am most nights. And then I usually record and write on Saturdays like it's a work day unless I have a band in in which case I do all weekend. But the only way it works is that I can get off of day job work at 3pm and I'm all family from 3pm to 10pm pretty much every day. Working remote has been a game changer. Now what happens when I start playing shows again? Who knows... maybe I won't. Or at least not much. Being at home is way more fun!
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Post by gravesnumber9 on May 11, 2021 12:36:43 GMT -6
It looks like you need 2 x Fig8 capable LDCs, either tube mics ..or maybe solid state with some thick tube preamps (See Dan Boner’s stuff on YouTube) I’ve used early 2000’s 414 B-ULS which are the flat voiced ones. Those recordings came out good, they always took EQ and processing great. Just boring 414 vibes, not awesome tube mic feeling. A tube pre could possibly fix that. As a vocal mic, looking at a 414 kind of annoys me, it doesn’t feel right. If that were a problem, you could use it further away as a second mic though. Having two fig8 capable mics will open up a lot of possibilities I was thinking about the 48 for the fig 8. And I've been looking for an earlier 414 but kind of growing impatient on finding one at a reasonable price (it's been months). I'm also thinking about getting a cheapie multi-pattern mic like the AT 2050 for things like this. I've got a 3035 that is still usable 15 years later, they seem to know how to make cheap stuff that doesn't suck. The tube pres on the 4-710 can get pretty thick. Are you envisioning like two Fig-8 thing for guitar/vox type thing? Or for group bluegrass type stuff (another big market in my area). Curious what makes you say that.
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Post by johneppstein on May 11, 2021 14:29:01 GMT -6
Ok, I've been doing an upgrade on my project studio and I'm nearing the end of the line here. I believe that my biggest need is one more vocal microphone. I also have four open 500 series slots and I think I'm going to pick up a 1U headphone amp. I've got a pic below of the studio, got a rack on the way for all this stuff not pictured. Budget is $3k. But nothing wrong with coming under budget! I'm going to post current gear list at the bottom of this post but first my intended uses and then some of my mic targets. Sorry for the long post but you guys are all insanely knowledgable and I figure the more info I give you on what I would do with this stuff, the better the recommendations I'll get back. Also at the bottom is a link to my own singing which might help some of you golden ear wizards steer me right. Uses- My primary target for my studio is singer/songwriter and indie types looking for creativity over big studio sound. Nathaniel Ratliffe would like the vibe. So would Blake Mills (are you out there Blake? Let's be friends) or guys like Doug Paisley or Hiss Golden Messenger. I've also been kind of a niche session hire doing keys for psych rock type stuff and lots of cosmic country type stuff. Nothing wrong with a little Doug Sahm. Anyway, those are the styles of the sort of people who are expressing interest and have been coming by to be guinea pigs. It's a style I can nail without having to make my room do something it can't or shouldn't. - Drums, when there are drums, are usually done with a Recorder Man style or a M/S overhead with kick and snare. I've been using an M160 and a R10 for this along with a 57 on snare and a M88 on kick. It's coming out all right, not thrilled with the kick but that's probably me, not the mic. - Electric guitars are usually one of Silvertone Twin Twelve, Blues Jr, Vox Pathfinder, or a 90's era blackface Deluxe if I need to rattle the windows. Or whatever anyone brings in. Current technique is M160 at a mid distance blended with a TLM102 at the back of the room. Seems to be working. - Keys are mostly MIDI though I do sometimes track on an incredibly well maintained 1920's Wurlitzer full size upright. But it's a pain in the ass to be honest. I prefer MIDI and then running it through some analogue processing later. - Bass I run direct. Usually through a SansAmp, sometimes just straight into 4-710 with the drive pretty well pushed. - I do a fair amount of horns and accordion and random instruments with session players I'm friends with to spice things up. It's a key value proposition for me that I can call on musician buddies who owe me favors and get a good price for my clients. Never needed anything other than m160 and TLM 102 here. And then the grandaddy instrument of them all... vocals. This gets us to where I think I can upgrade with the most impact. My two primary vocal mics are the SM7 and the TLM 102. I've gotten great sounds out of both but I think I need another flavor of LDC in case the TLM 102 doesn't work well. How do I know that? Because it doesn't work well for me and I'm the most important client of all. Ok, it's good but it takes work. I'm a pretty sibilant singer (despite my best efforts not to be) and the TLM 102, while liking the rest of my voice, is not liking that. I use the SM7 most of the time anyway for myself... or the M88... but I feel like if I had a warmer LDC that could be my go-to. I kind of have a nasally/harsh voice on some songs and am also a pretty loud singer at times. The TLM 102 is working for the ballads, but not so much for more upper midrange stuff that the SM7 works on. Plus, again, I just think I need more variety for potential clients. My ThoughtsI'm leaning heavily towards a u47 or u47 FET style. I like the looks and vibe of the United Studios FET47 and the vocal clips I've heard sound quite good. That's on my list. I hear endless good things about the Lewitts although I hate how they look (the 840 is not as bad). The Signal Art u48 is appealing as well because of the fig 8 pattern (I'm really into m/s right now). The Pearlman's are appealing. And then there's the good old 414. Historically they've sounded good on my voice but I never seem to find any of the old ones for sale. I've never sung into the newer ones. My budget for this and the remainder of my upgrade is $3k. The other piece of the puzzle is four remaining 500 series slots and a headphone amp. So I could do something like the Signal Art and fill those slots with DBXs or I could something like the FET47 or even a new 414 or Lewitt and fill it with nicer stuff. Priority is the mic though. What I Sound Like soundcloud.com/adoniram-liptonSoundcloud has a couple acoustic covers I recorded for fun a while back followed by a few tracks from the album I'm currently working on in another studio. Mixed but not mastered yet on these uploads. I've got way more recent stuff but not been uploading things. This is mainly so you can hear how I sing. Last thing is a drunken house party from like 10 years ago. I sing a lot like that too. Below is my band. Maybe defunct, maybe not. Remains to be seen. What I Have NowCondensers TLM 102 AT3035 Oktava 012 (matched pair) DynamicsSM7B 57 (2) Heil P22 (2) - Vocals, snare, amps Beyerdynamic M88 Sennheiser ND 468 (2) Ribbons
Beyerdynamic m160 Royer R10 Pre-AmpsTrident S20 (2) - two channels each UA 4-710 - four channels of Twin Finity plus four line level Apollo X4 Chroma w/hitmaker (2) Processing
Cranborne 500ADAT - in/out ADAT plus summing mixer if I wanted to do that Serpent 4001B Chroma w/hitmaker (2) Four 500 slots TBD Art PRO VLA TC Electronic M300 More plugins than I need. Lots of UAD as well as a few Softube and the PA subscription MonitorsKRK VXT6 Pioneer RM-5 Misc
Faderport 16 (love this thing with Studio One) Studio One Logic Sonarworks Reasonable amount of sound treatment... the REW charts say it's under control and it's working for me, not pictured below are a bunch of Gobos and stuff that I bring out as well. View AttachmentDon't get a new 414. The more AKG "improves" them, the worse they sound.
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Post by ragan on May 11, 2021 15:17:19 GMT -6
Of the newer, reasonably-priced 414s I like the b-ULS and XLS the best. They're flatter and less hyped up top. But I'd take 3U Warblers over either of them. And actually, when I got my pair of Warbler MKIDs, I sold my pair of 414b-ULS.
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Post by OtisGreying on May 11, 2021 15:21:31 GMT -6
If you want U47 I think the Flea 47 is the best for the money. I haven’t tried the Heiserman though. Flea 47 Next only cardioid is 3k and I’m pretty picky and very happy with my vocals on it.
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Post by gouge on May 11, 2021 15:23:08 GMT -6
a mic that dips the mids might be worth checking.
U89, SM54 dynamic.
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Post by notneeson on May 11, 2021 15:29:50 GMT -6
My primary target for my studio is singer/songwriter and indie types looking for creativity over big studio sound. Nathaniel Ratliffe would like the vibe. So would Blake Mills (are you out there Blake? Let's be friends) or guys like Doug Paisley or Hiss Golden Messenger View AttachmentI was acquainted with/opened for their previous band, Court and Spark way back when. Talented guys, friendly as well. Have you looked at the Serano 87? Might be a better all around vocal mic than a 414, based on rep. In my experience any 87 is better than a 414 on most voices.
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Post by christopher on May 11, 2021 15:59:50 GMT -6
It looks like you need 2 x Fig8 capable LDCs, either tube mics ..or maybe solid state with some thick tube preamps (See Dan Boner’s stuff on YouTube) I’ve used early 2000’s 414 B-ULS which are the flat voiced ones. Those recordings came out good, they always took EQ and processing great. Just boring 414 vibes, not awesome tube mic feeling. A tube pre could possibly fix that. As a vocal mic, looking at a 414 kind of annoys me, it doesn’t feel right. If that were a problem, you could use it further away as a second mic though. Having two fig8 capable mics will open up a lot of possibilities I was thinking about the 48 for the fig 8. And I've been looking for an earlier 414 but kind of growing impatient on finding one at a reasonable price (it's been months). I'm also thinking about getting a cheapie multi-pattern mic like the AT 2050 for things like this. I've got a 3035 that is still usable 15 years later, they seem to know how to make cheap stuff that doesn't suck. The tube pres on the 4-710 can get pretty thick. Are you envisioning like two Fig-8 thing for guitar/vox type thing? Or for group bluegrass type stuff (another big market in my area). Curious what makes you say that. The 710 may be enough? I forget about those, I tend to think of them as kind of hi-fi for some reason.. but may be perfect. I love fig 8 on everything usually, learning how to use the nulls to block stuff that I don’t want makes it even more useful. Plus the rear capsule can sometimes sound better. And with two multi pattern mics your spatial options open up.. MS, ORTF, Blumlein, or invent whatever you want. For example, you know the SM7 works on your voice. So you might put a Blumlein pair a little further away while you track vocals on your SM7 or whatever, record as 3 tracks, It can give you a 3D thing. Useful for recording others, but you know.. can always try mismatched mics as well, so.. (shrug)
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Post by thirdeye on May 11, 2021 16:10:48 GMT -6
This might sound insane to some people, but skip the 500 series gear and put the full 3K into the microphone, maybe some change for a headphone amp. Put the hardware on the back burner for now, just enjoy waiting even longer for it. I used to have a lightly modded Peluso 2247 SE that was good. But in the next range up there's things like Heiserman 47, Pearlman is in the Peluso price range too, maybe not as bright as the Peluso. Some people don't take to the bright. There's also the Flea 47 NEXT which is a cardioid microphone, that I'd be tempted by based on sound clips. I'm not as experienced as some of the other people on here with top shelf mics, but I think that low end girth and upper mid shnizzle of a 47 would probably suit your voice, too. My basic plan is to get the mic I need and then just use what's leftover, so your advice is pretty good on that front. Onto the mic itself, my thinking is that if the SM7B works for me (which it does) the darker sounding U47 types probably will too. Looking pretty seriously at the Signal Arts u48. It's a gigantic amount of money to spend on anything, but if it sounds good it's a mic for life type thing. I can highly recommend the Signal Art U48 Premium. We've used it on a large percentage of vocals since we've got it, and it delivers every time! An excellent mic!
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Post by gwlee7 on May 11, 2021 16:50:52 GMT -6
You know, you live in Austin and my very best friend and collaborator lives there as well. Here’s what I am willing to do as things get back to a more “normal”:
I will bring my Gefell M92.1s with me the next time I come if you want to try it out. I would love to meet you in person, and see your space. You can borrow the mic overnight and then I can snag it the next day when I get ready to head back to Dallas.
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Post by jmoose on May 11, 2021 17:12:34 GMT -6
I would save my $3k until you discover an actual need for something. Follow me here...
Having a personal studio is one thing, when you start to accept outside sessions and take other people's money there are always going to be certain demands. It may not take long to figure out what those are and you might be glad you have cash in reserve. Sometimes you need a key piece of equipment to make a session happen.
The vast majority of studio gear I've bought over the years has been driven by requests. Instruments, mics, outboard gear... all purchased to meet requests and expectations.
For instance, a very long time ago I bought my first drum set because people kept asking about it. Can our drummer use your kit his sucks? What kinda drums do you have? Is it a Tama set? Given enough of those over a period of time I realized, damn... I guess I should buy some drums.
Same goes for microphones like Neumanns... headphone amps... you name it. Can remember once buying a couple headphone amps because I knew my cue system wasn't up to par for a given session.
Everyone has a different workflow and tastes. The things I need in my shop, and that I like may not apply to someone else. So I can look at your equipment list and see a lot of holes and things I would add... things that would get used on a daily basis but maybe you don't have the need for 'em.
Like I'd add another TLM102 so I had a pair for stereo... not that I'm a big SM57 fan but maybe a couple more of those? Gotta have a couple Sennheiser 421's... You have a drum kit? Where's the basic kick drum mic?
Seems like you have a lot of preamps but no real outboard besides the ART VLA? I'd need more compressors... and some outboard EQ... and if I was serious about mixing probably ditch the pioneer home stereo speakers and get something fairly badass and full range... plus a monitor controller...
Easy to say put it all into one "vocal microphone" but that's probably not practical for a working "for hire" shop. YMMV.
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Post by dok on May 11, 2021 17:49:22 GMT -6
Why not get a second hand U87? Might have been buried in my original novel that I posted, but the U87 has never sounded good on my voice. I've tried it more than once in more than one different studio and it's lost every shootout it's ever been in (for me). So the appeal would be in the "workhorse" capabilities of the mic, but I will be the vocalist about 50% of the time in here so it doesn't make sense until I build up a larger client roster. I wouldn't get a U87(ai) if sibilance is a problem. I fight it with my U87ai all the time and it's very annoying, to the point where I really should get another mic but I got such a good deal on it that it's really hard to let go. But I'm interested in this thread because I'm basically in the same boat with a slightly smaller budget. Can't decide between something like a Warm or Advanced Audio 67 clone or the Serrano C87.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on May 11, 2021 17:58:53 GMT -6
My primary target for my studio is singer/songwriter and indie types looking for creativity over big studio sound. Nathaniel Ratliffe would like the vibe. So would Blake Mills (are you out there Blake? Let's be friends) or guys like Doug Paisley or Hiss Golden Messenger View AttachmentI was acquainted with/opened for their previous band, Court and Spark way back when. Talented guys, friendly as well. Have you looked at the Serano 87? Might be a better all around vocal mic than a 414, based on rep. In my experience any 87 is better than a 414 on most voices. MC is a super nice guy. Met him a few times, we always say hi when he's in Austin and he humors us. My wife is kind of a Hiss Golden Messenger stalker going on like 6 years now. It's awkward for all involved. Haha. Great to see them doing well.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on May 11, 2021 18:00:33 GMT -6
My basic plan is to get the mic I need and then just use what's leftover, so your advice is pretty good on that front. Onto the mic itself, my thinking is that if the SM7B works for me (which it does) the darker sounding U47 types probably will too. Looking pretty seriously at the Signal Arts u48. It's a gigantic amount of money to spend on anything, but if it sounds good it's a mic for life type thing. I can highly recommend the Signal Art U48 Premium. We've used it on a large percentage of vocals since we've got it, and it delivers every time! An excellent mic! That's awesome! Can you point me to any links?
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Post by gravesnumber9 on May 11, 2021 18:02:11 GMT -6
You know, you live in Austin and my very best friend and collaborator lives there as well. Here’s what I am willing to do as things get back to a more “normal”: I will bring my Gefell M92.1s with me the next time I come if you want to try it out. I would love to meet you in person, and see your space. You can borrow the mic overnight and then I can snag it the next day when I get ready to head back to Dallas. Well that's a no-brainer of a deal. Sign me up. Although we're in Georgetown now that's even better. Stop in on your way to Austin, stop out on your way home.
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Post by gwlee7 on May 11, 2021 18:05:13 GMT -6
Absolutely. I will give you a holler when I am headed that way. I would guess within the next month or so.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on May 11, 2021 18:07:54 GMT -6
Absolutely. I will give you a holler when I am headed that way. I would guess within the next month or so. Sounds awesome. I'll be out of town for a few weeks around the 4th but here for most of June. Would be really cool to meet someone from "the board"!
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Post by gravesnumber9 on May 11, 2021 18:19:35 GMT -6
I would save my $3k until you discover an actual need for something. Follow me here... Having a personal studio is one thing, when you start to accept outside sessions and take other people's money there are always going to be certain demands. It may not take long to figure out what those are and you might be glad you have cash in reserve. Sometimes you need a key piece of equipment to make a session happen. The vast majority of studio gear I've bought over the years has been driven by requests. Instruments, mics, outboard gear... all purchased to meet requests and expectations. For instance, a very long time ago I bought my first drum set because people kept asking about it. Can our drummer use your kit his sucks? What kinda drums do you have? Is it a Tama set? Given enough of those over a period of time I realized, damn... I guess I should buy some drums. Same goes for microphones like Neumanns... headphone amps... you name it. Can remember once buying a couple headphone amps because I knew my cue system wasn't up to par for a given session. Everyone has a different workflow and tastes. The things I need in my shop, and that I like may not apply to someone else. So I can look at your equipment list and see a lot of holes and things I would add... things that would get used on a daily basis but maybe you don't have the need for 'em. Like I'd add another TLM102 so I had a pair for stereo... not that I'm a big SM57 fan but maybe a couple more of those? Gotta have a couple Sennheiser 421's... You have a drum kit? Where's the basic kick drum mic? Seems like you have a lot of preamps but no real outboard besides the ART VLA? I'd need more compressors... and some outboard EQ... and if I was serious about mixing probably ditch the pioneer home stereo speakers and get something fairly badass and full range... plus a monitor controller... Easy to say put it all into one "vocal microphone" but that's probably not practical for a working "for hire" shop. YMMV. I like the out of the box input here a lot. A couple points just so you know I'm not totally nuts. A big part of this is that I'm not happy with my own vocal sounds. Or at least I don't want to be totally beholden to the SM7B. So if I can find a mic that is "golden" for me, chances are it will be good for at least a portion of some other people. And then I can take your wise approach and solicit feedback and add on as time passes. Speaking of feedback, this is why a patchbay and better headphone monitoring system are on the way. Did a project a couple weeks ago and got some "umm... should we go out and have a cigarette while you get the monitor mix right?" Yikes. Not good. Which is why I'm not ready for primetime (these were guys I'm friends with coming down to test things out for me in return for some free pre-production tracking). So some of what you're seeing in my initial post is exactly what you're suggesting. I need better routing. I need a flagship vocal mic. And I need a couple more outboard options for tracking (buried in the initial post was that the leftover dough is going to 500 series units). On the monitors, I like the RM-05s for midrange. I had this debate when I got them but they're definitely not home stereo speakers. Between those and the KRK VXT6s I know what I'm hearing. But yeah, at some point down the line a monitor upgrade will be in order. I currently put all the money from the "studio" (there's not much) back into the "studio". So if this thing is successful at all, the "oh crap, everyone is asking me about this" nest egg will grow. Good advice!
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Post by gwlee7 on May 11, 2021 18:33:09 GMT -6
Absolutely. I will give you a holler when I am headed that way. I would guess within the next month or so. Sounds awesome. I'll be out of town for a few weeks around the 4th but here for most of June. Would be really cool to meet someone from "the board"! I head down several times a year.
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Post by christopher on May 11, 2021 18:44:28 GMT -6
Oh man, reading your post.. yeah.. I wouldn’t worry too much about taking too long getting monitoring setup and the right sound. I always plan extra time for that if possible, because if you get the talent comfortable and mic placement just right, it will hopefully save 3x the work in editing. And I hate editing. I think it’s normal to take a while, tell the talent to have a break. I’ve worked with a guy who was super frustrating cause he’d have you sitting there 30 minutes+ thinking the red light was coming any second. Not my way to do things, imo.
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