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Post by mrholmes on Apr 18, 2021 13:25:57 GMT -6
Just wondering if there is a microphone which is preferred for an open sounding top end - giving a sense of height on head voice lead vocals?
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Post by Guitar on Apr 18, 2021 15:03:22 GMT -6
Maybe a C12?
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Post by chessparov on Apr 18, 2021 15:08:09 GMT -6
Budget?
Chris
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Post by timcampbell on Apr 18, 2021 15:17:16 GMT -6
Well yes the C12/251 family seem to be the go to female vocal mic for that very reason.
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Post by mrholmes on Apr 18, 2021 15:18:05 GMT -6
Not sure.
I would not go over 2K, it's a future plan because I have no idea when this COVID-19 disaster ends... I just made today the experience that some of my favorite recordings in the LV they also have height and airines.
That's something my UMT70 cant do, no matter how good I sing or place the mic.
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Post by mrholmes on Apr 18, 2021 15:25:24 GMT -6
Well yes the C12/251 family seem to be the go to female vocal mic for that very reason.
Is the Avantone C-V12 clone any good?
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Post by chessparov on Apr 18, 2021 15:31:53 GMT -6
Some say the stock Avantone capsule, is a bit harsh. There is also a Black Lion (Pre-) Modded version. IIRC it's a Sweetwater exclusive. I wonder how the new T-Funk TF11 (FET) might fare? (not saying it's quite up to Tim C's level, on the capsule!  Chris |
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Post by Tbone81 on Apr 18, 2021 15:32:38 GMT -6
Well yes the C12/251 family seem to be the go to female vocal mic for that very reason.
Is the Avantone C-V12 clone any good?
The Avantone CV-12 seems to be the mostly highly regarded mic from Avantone...but...I've owned a few of those mics (never the CV-12 though), and always found them to be harsh in the high end. I would guess that there are better "cheap" clones these days, like the advanced audio one. |
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Post by chessparov on Apr 18, 2021 15:36:20 GMT -6
Maybe the Roswell Colares too.
Chris
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Post by mrholmes on Apr 18, 2021 16:01:41 GMT -6
There is also the Peluso at 1.7 k
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Post by mrholmes on Apr 18, 2021 16:03:55 GMT -6
Is the Avantone C-V12 clone any good?
The Avantone CV-12 seems to be the mostly highly regarded mic from Avantone...but...I've owned a few of those mics (never the CV-12 though), and always found them to be harsh in the high end. I would guess that there are better "cheap" clones these days, like the advanced audio one. This?
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Post by Guitar on Apr 18, 2021 16:10:27 GMT -6
There is also the Peluso at 1.7 k I had the Peluso capsule in some DIY mics. It's not perfect, but it's darn good, capable of some impressive sounds. |
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Post by srb on Apr 18, 2021 16:41:40 GMT -6
Maybe the Roswell Colares too. Chris This mic intrigues me. I saw it used in a Coil Audio demonstration (I think?), and it sounded really good in that context. |
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Post by chessparov on Apr 18, 2021 17:03:32 GMT -6
Vincent has sung on the AA version, of the C12. Not sure if he still has it though. Maybe he'll chime in. I loved the sound of the FLEA 12 (With Tim's capsule) and the Bock 251. (Champagne taste/Beer Budget here! Chris P.S. I wanted to try the Colares out, But no NAMM 2021. |
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Post by hadaja on Apr 18, 2021 17:52:05 GMT -6
You know the adk z:mod 251 nearly comes in at that budget if you can find a second hand one..
I love the focussed whisper quiet sound of this mic. i think it fairs qute well against my bock 251’s i had. I have bought a couple of ge 5 star tubes i am about to test out in the ADK and the Upton to hear the changes when they arrive.
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Post by mrholmes on Apr 18, 2021 19:34:53 GMT -6
Maybe the Roswell Colares too. Chris
Cool this sounds like an interesting approach...
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Post by indiehouse on Apr 19, 2021 0:13:25 GMT -6
You know the adk z:mod 251 nearly comes in at that budget if you can find a second hand one.. I love the focussed whisper quiet sound of this mic. i think it fairs qute well against my bock 251’s i had. I have bought a couple of ge 5 star tubes i am about to test out in the ADK and the Upton to hear the changes when they arrive. Don’t the ADK’s use 12ax7’s in their mics? Not sure if a 6072 is a drop-in replacement or not. |
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Post by hadaja on Apr 19, 2021 0:22:44 GMT -6
You know the adk z:mod 251 nearly comes in at that budget if you can find a second hand one.. I love the focussed whisper quiet sound of this mic. i think it fairs qute well against my bock 251’s i had. I have bought a couple of ge 5 star tubes i am about to test out in the ADK and the Upton to hear the changes when they arrive. Don’t the ADK’s use 12ax7’s in their mics? Not sure if a 6072 is a drop-in replacement or not. They sent a few extra tubes with it so I thought one of them might have been the 6072 equivalent, but It was more to try in the Upton and the BSA 251. But good point I will look into it for the ADK. |
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Post by hadaja on Apr 19, 2021 0:34:29 GMT -6
EDIT update: Actually they include a few extra tubes one of them was a JJ 12AY7 so I think that might classify as a 6072 type tube. There was also a Mullard 12AX7 I have not tried that one yet. nice of the ADK people to provide some extra tubes to try.
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Post by Vincent R. on Apr 19, 2021 6:52:07 GMT -6
A lot of people offered some good advice here. Now that I know your budget I can hone in a few thoughts of my own.
If you plan on using both your UMT70 and this new microphone for a possible duet with a female and male vocalist I would suggest you stay in the realm of FET mics. I tend to find it harder to mix duets when one vocalist is on a tube mic and the other is on a FET mic. Maybe its just me. If you're not worried about that specific task then you have a bunch of options.
FET mics:
U87ai - Don't discount a used U87ai for solid and more open female vocals. I know it's a touch more than your budget, but I thought I'd mention it. It's not the most open microphone on the planet, but it has a focus and openness that works for a lot of female vocalists. Shrill voices and nasal voices should be avoided though. The U87ai really shines with a vibey solid state preamp like a Neve 1073 or a cleaner tube preamp like a Demeter VTMP-2.
BLUE Kiwi - Utilizing BLUE's B6 capsule, which is a K67 style capsule tuned to be a bit like a CK12 capsule, this microphone is a bit like an even more modern sounding U87, with a little more in the high end and a deeper low end. I've used this microphone on duets I've done where I was on the U87ai and the female vocalist was on the Kiwi. Again, this shines though vibey solid state preamp like a 1073 or a cleaner tube preamp like a Demeter VTMP-2.
The Lauten Atlantis - This is a pretty cool microphone with multiple voice settings. The forward setting is more open than the U87ai and reminds me of what a FET 251 might sound like. I've used the microphone myself and Emily. All the settings are really nice and useful.
Tube Microphones:
Avantone CV12 (my thoughts) - I liked this microphone better than others on this board and if you can grab one for $600 or less it's ok, but it's still a touch cheap sounding. I had a pair of TNC ACM-1200s which is the early Chinese microphone that would become the CV12. We used a Mullard tube in it for harmonics and for a slightly beefier sound. I did a pretty nice pop recording as a gift for my mother that featured myself, my brother & sister, and my wife, and we all used the ACM-1200. That said, I had Advanced Audio mod both into there CM12SE and CM251.
Advanced Audio, Warm, and Peluso (my thoughts) - These will all give you more open sound, but in my opinion they all still sound cheap. I think the AA CM12SE and CM251 where more even sounding than the ACM-1200, but I'm not sure that made them that much better better. The conversion of course replaced the generic K67 capsule with a CEK-12 style capsule, corrected a circuit issue and replaced the generic transformer. The CEK12 capsule is also the capsule used in the Warm WA251. John Peluso designed the CEK12 for is P12 and P22 251 microphones. It's a modified edge terminated version of the K67 designed to have a similar frequency response to the CK12. It is much easier to manufacture, but only sounds ok. I never loved the CM12SE or CM251. They were ok.
If you really have your heart set on a tube microphone I would save a little more and increase your budget, or reach out to Barbaric and have a microphone custom made. He will guide you through what your options are and where to get the parts. If you choose to build a 251 or C12 style mic start with a great capsule; The Heiserman CK12 has a very good reputation and of course there is Tim's which everyone really loves and as you can see from his posts, he stands behind them and builds them with a lot of care. From there you can weigh your transformer options and choose how much you want to spend on the body kit. If you're not obsessed with that, go with a generic kit and save a few bucks.
I've come to this point in my own journey where I really understand the phrase "buy cheap, buy twice." I have also found that your are often better with a really good FET mic through a good preamp than a cheap tube microphone. Anyway, those are just my thoughts for what they are worth.
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Post by mrholmes on Apr 19, 2021 7:17:59 GMT -6
A lot of people offered some good advice here. Now that I know your budget I can hone in a few thoughts of my own. If you plan on using both your UMT70 and this new microphone for a possible duet with a female and male vocalist I would suggest you stay in the realm of FET mics. I tend to find it harder to mix duets when one vocalist is on a tube mic and the other is on a FET mic. Maybe its just me. If you're not worried about that specific task then you have a bunch of options. FET mics: U87ai - Don't discount a used U87ai for solid and more open female vocals. I know it's a touch more than your budget, but I thought I'd mention it. It's not the most open microphone on the planet, but it has a focus and openness that works for a lot of female vocalists. Shrill voices and nasal voices should be avoided though. The U87ai really shines with a vibey solid state preamp like a Neve 1073 or a cleaner tube preamp like a Demeter VTMP-2. BLUE Kiwi - Utilizing BLUE's B6 capsule, which is a K67 style capsule tuned to be a bit like a CK12 capsule, this microphone is a bit like an even more modern sounding U87, with a little more in the high end and a deeper low end. I've used this microphone on duets I've done where I was on the U87ai and the female vocalist was on the Kiwi. Again, this shines though vibey solid state preamp like a 1073 or a cleaner tube preamp like a Demeter VTMP-2. The Lauten Atlantis - This is a pretty cool microphone with multiple voice settings. The forward setting is more open than the U87ai and reminds me of what a FET 251 might sound like. I've used the microphone myself and Emily. All the settings are really nice and useful. Tube Microphones:Avantone CV12 (my thoughts) - I liked this microphone better than others on this board and if you can grab one for $600 or less it's ok, but it's still a touch cheap sounding. I had a pair of TNC ACM-1200s which is the early Chinese microphone that would become the CV12. We used a Mullard tube in it for harmonics and for a slightly beefier sound. I did a pretty nice pop recording as a gift for my mother that featured myself, my brother & sister, and my wife, and we all used the ACM-1200. That said, I had Advanced Audio mod both into there CM12SE and CM251. Advanced Audio, Warm, and Peluso (my thoughts) - These will all give you more open sound, but in my opinion they all still sound cheap. I think the AA CM12SE and CM251 where more even sounding than the ACM-1200, but I'm not sure that made them that much better better. The conversion of course replaced the generic K67 capsule with a CEK-12 style capsule, corrected a circuit issue and replaced the generic transformer. The CEK12 capsule is also the capsule used in the Warm WA251. John Peluso designed the CEK12 for is P12 and P22 251 microphones. It's a modified edge terminated version of the K67 designed to have a similar frequency response to the CK12. It is much easier to manufacture, but only sounds ok. I never loved the CM12SE or CM251. They were ok. If you really have your heart set on a tube microphone I would save a little more and increase your budget, or reach out to Barbaric and have a microphone custom made. He will guide you through what your options are and where to get the parts. If you choose to build a 251 or C12 style mic start with a great capsule; The Heiserman CK12 has a very good reputation and of course there is Tim's which everyone really loves and as you can see from his posts, he stands behind them and builds them with a lot of care. From there you can weigh your transformer options and choose how much you want to spend on the body kit. If you're not obsessed with that, go with a generic kit and save a few bucks. I've come to this point in my own journey where I really understand the phrase "buy cheap, buy twice." I have also found that your are often better with a really good FET mic through a good preamp than a cheap tube microphone. Anyway, those are just my thoughts for what they are worth.
Thanks for this one and all the other suggestions. As always if I ask 10 people I get 20 opinions.
A friend suggested the WA 251 which he used for a long time, and he knows pretty much all the expensive stuff for decades. Owner of several Neumann Vintage Tube mics...
I think it's always a matter of using the gear. First hints aren't bad....
I see that Warm saved on the PSU and body.
I learned one lesson no more impulse buys.
I need to sleep over it.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 19, 2021 7:29:34 GMT -6
Easy answer, the Lewitt 640. I'm not sure if it's still available. It sounds like a 414, but with a better low end, really. The top is what you want, no Chinese sizzle at all.
Since Avantone has upgraded and updated their CV-12 to the CV-12 BLA, that would be worth looking into also.
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Post by teejay on Apr 19, 2021 8:01:26 GMT -6
EDIT update: Actually they include a few extra tubes one of them was a JJ 12AY7 so I think that might classify as a 6072 type tube. There was also a Mullard 12AX7 I have not tried that one yet. nice of the ADK people to provide some extra tubes to try. The Mullard Reissue 12AX7 is the tube Larry has traditionally used in his mics as the primary. He included a Tung Sol 12AX7 in my package, which was meh. I did not buy Larry's "Silver" package, which at the time included different cabling and more tubes. Looks like he's now consolidated to just one offering/package. I did try a NOS GE 6072 in my Z-251, and while it sounded good, I didn't think it sounded overtly better. I also tried a NOS Mullard 12AT7 (that I purchased to try during my Upton demo), and it sounded very nice...a bit more muscular in the mids. However, I found a NOS Telefunken 12AX7 to sound the best on my vocals, putting the ADK squarely in the same ballpark sonically with the Upton. |
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Post by Vincent R. on Apr 19, 2021 8:25:30 GMT -6
Thanks for this one and all the other suggestions. As always if I ask 10 people I get 20 opinions.
A friend suggested the WA 251 which he used for a long time, and he knows pretty much all the expensive stuff for decades. Owner of several Neumann Vintage Tube mics...
I think it's always a matter of using the gear. First hints aren't bad....
I see that Warm saved on the PSU and body.
I learned one lesson no more impulse buys.
I need to sleep over it.
I haven't been overly impressed by the WA251 personally, and this video really clinched it for me. You could grab the WA251 and swap the capsule though. |
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Post by mhbunch on Apr 19, 2021 10:19:40 GMT -6
There is also the Peluso at 1.7 k RUN AWAY from the peluso unless you enjoy ice picks in your ear. |
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