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Post by ragan on Mar 5, 2021 2:23:31 GMT -6
Ehhh. QJ says a lotta shit in that article. That he knows who killed JFK. That Paul Allen “plays and sings just like Jimi Hendrix” (I know musicians Allen hired for those cruise things...they, uh, tell a different tale). He also says The Beatles couldn’t play at all and that Paul was “the worst bass player”. Gimme a break. Sounds like a dude who just likes to talk and loves the sound of his own hot takes. We’ve all been at the party with the obnoxious dude who has to constantly say something controversial. An edgy take a minute. That whole interview is like that to me. Also, the Ringo thing...they had a jazz guy come in for the overdub. Who knows what kind of tune it was. Some people try to get someone like Ringo on their track for the cache, regardless of the fit. No one’s ever characterized him as some amazing, versatile session dude. He’s just a guy who’s particular musicianship was perfect for The Beatles.
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Post by lpedrum on Mar 5, 2021 3:10:21 GMT -6
I’m really getting tired of having to defend one of the most musical and influential drummers in history. His playing speaks for itself. His style and feel is exactly the same whether live or in the studio.
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Post by pouletdegrains on Mar 5, 2021 3:24:37 GMT -6
Ehhh. QJ says a lotta shit in that article. That he knows who killed JFK. That Paul Allen “plays and sings just like Jimi Hendrix” (I know musicians Allen hired for those cruise things...they, uh, tell a different tale). He also says The Beatles couldn’t play at all and that Paul was “the worst bass player”. Gimme a break. Sounds like a dude who just likes to talk and loves the sound of his own hot takes. We’ve all been at the party with the obnoxious dude who has to constantly say something controversial. An edgy take a minute. That whole interview is like that to me. Also, the Ringo thing...they had a jazz guy come in for the overdub. Who knows what kind of tune it was. Some people try to get someone like Ringo on their track for the cache, regardless of the fit. No one’s ever characterized him as some amazing, versatile session dude. He’s just a guy who’s particular musicianship was perfect for The Beatles. I agree with what you're writing on Ringo. I posted the Quincy Jones interview not for the interview itself, he is free to talk shit as much as he wants now, but in the reactions it drew. Famous musicians and bands are now part of a narrative, and it will never be possible to actually document their contributions and do research on it, to either prove it or amend it. I feel it is very much the case with the Beatles. I agree that Ringo's musicianship was perfect for the Beatles, however I have read and heard often, even in drummer's circles, that he is an "amazing versatile session dude". Even Gregg Bissonette did clinics to show how revolutionary were his fills. This is part of the narrative I'm talking about, which may be detrimental to the creativity of upcoming artists, defining universal standards.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Mar 5, 2021 6:22:43 GMT -6
Man that Quincy stuff is pretty amazing - you’ve gotta give him credit for having the balls to talk so much shit!
He’s obviously full of it, as is Bernard Purdie (one of my favorites) when he says he played on Beatles tracks.
My understanding is Paul is the only other person to play on the Beatles stuff.
Anyway, you couldn’t fart without somebody at Abby Road notating or documenting it. If somebody else played, there would be proof.
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 5, 2021 6:50:35 GMT -6
To me criticizing Ringo is missing the whole point, as said above, perfect for the Beatles, very very innovative and creative snd the songs just wouldn’t be the same or near as good with another drummer.
You also have to wonder how many other drummers, could have made the same career contribution to the Beatles and demonstrated Ringo’s versatility as well ?
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 5, 2021 7:42:44 GMT -6
Uh…I love the Beatles. I would say I’m a super fan. But holy shit, I’m sorry I questioned the religion. Lol
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Post by swurveman on Mar 5, 2021 8:40:26 GMT -6
I love all those 60’s drummers and their fills. My favorite Ringo performance is “A Day In A Life”. His tom fills and overal drum composition is beautiful. To each their own I guess. I wish there was a “no click track/no drum samples” genre. That 60’s sound when performed by great players is timeless.
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Post by bradd on Mar 5, 2021 9:39:07 GMT -6
How would Quincy Jones know who played what on a Beatles tune? I've read a lot about The Beatles sessions, including Recording the Beatles and have never read anything about him being present for any recordings.
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Post by svart on Mar 5, 2021 9:49:14 GMT -6
You mean like "if people like the beatles then there is no sense in trying to write good music?" Srsly though, I don't like the beatles. Guess I just don't "get it".
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Post by ragan on Mar 5, 2021 9:49:56 GMT -6
How would Quincy Jones know who played what on a Beatles tune? I've read a lot about The Beatles sessions, including Recording the Beatles and have never read anything about him being present for any recordings. I don’t think QJ, even as full of (admittedly entertaining) shit as he is, was talking about a Beatles session. That would be too obviously false. He just said it was some recording session.
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 5, 2021 10:45:13 GMT -6
How would Quincy Jones know who played what on a Beatles tune? I've read a lot about The Beatles sessions, including Recording the Beatles and have never read anything about him being present for any recordings. I don’t think QJ, even as full of (admittedly fun) shit as he is, was talking about a Beatles session. That would be too obviously false. He just said it was some recording session. Yeah, Bradd: QJ was talking about the making of Ringo's first solo album, post-Beatles.
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Post by stratboy on Mar 5, 2021 11:15:16 GMT -6
When I listen to Ringo tracks in isolation, I hear a drummer who is strongly connected to and supporting the song. I love drummers like that. Some drummers are timekeepers, some are soloists, and some are collaborative composers. I’ll take the latter, every time.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 5, 2021 11:20:43 GMT -6
I’m sure the egos were enormous…sounds like Paul and John just had their own take on what should be played…I’m sure they had preferences on fills and the like. But really who cares. That video up top was great. Great parts that didn’t get in the way.
Did Paul McCartney Tell Ringo How to Play Drums on Beatles Songs?
July 21, 2019 Did Paul McCartney Tell Ringo How to Play Drums on Beatles Songs? By the time The Beatles got to the late 1960s, they were squabbling about a number of things. Among them, George Harrison greatly resented the lack of respect he got from John Lennon and Paul McCartney. That led to arguments with Paul and a bona fide fistfight with John in early 1969.
But the list didn’t begin to end there. John was beyond tired with Paul’s so-called “granny music” and let him know about it whenever they worked on tracks like “Maxwell’s Silver Hammer.” Meanwhile, Paul was disappointed John wouldn’t let him play on tracks like “Come Together.”
As for Ringo Starr, the Beatles’ drummer would get down on himself when he felt he wasn’t playing his best. It didn’t help that Paul and John would criticize him in the studio at these moments.
When Paul felt he had ideas for Ringo to try out on drums, he wouldn’t be shy about telling him. The Beatles’ chief engineer witnessed Paul’s “coaching” of Ringo on several occasions.
Paul often had suggestions for Ringo on his drum parts.
When Ringo replaced Pete Best in 1962, he naturally expected to record with the band at their first session at EMI with producer George Martin. But Martin didn’t consider Ringo ready after hearing him play the drums. (The Beatles had just fired Best for the same reasons.)
That meant Ringo played the tambourine while a session drummer hired by Martin worked with the band. And the dings to Ringo’s ego didn’t stop there. In 1966, when Geoff Emerick became the Beatles’ engineer for Revolver, he noticed Paul directing Ringo on the drums for “Tomorrow Never Knows.”
Emerick wrote in his book Here, There and Everyhwere that Ringo listened to instructions from other band members for a number of reasons, including because he was “the last of the four Beatles to join.” And Paul was usually the one giving those directions.
Following the death of Beatles manager Brian Epstein, Emerick saw Paul’s coaching — all the way down to banging a tambourine so Ringo could keep time — as a noble gesture. However, Ringo would take offense to it soon enough.
Complaints about Ringo’s drumming continued through ‘Abbey Road.’
By the time they recorded The White Album (1968), Ringo wasn’t taking kindly to his Paul’s suggestions. In fact,it was part of the reason Ringo walked out on the group in the summer of ’68.
It might sound crazy, but John and Paul had complaints with Ringo’s drumming even on the last tracks on the band’s final studio album (the Abbey Road medley John hated so much). Some seven years after welcoming his aboard, they still weren’t above criticizing their drummer.
During the part in which “Polythene Pam” ran into “She Came in Through the Bathroom Window,” John actually said Ringo “sounded like Dave Clark.” As Emerick noted, that was certainly not a compliment.
After getting the complaints, Ringo stayed late to improve his drum part. Since the Apple studios by then had eight-track equipment, the engineers were able to get his improved drums on the song without erasing the original. But it was not a happy day for Ringo.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 5, 2021 11:21:31 GMT -6
When I listen to Ringo tracks in isolation, I hear a drummer who is strongly connected to and supporting the song. I love drummers like that. Some drummers are timekeepers, some are soloists, and some are collaborative composers. I’ll take the latter, every time. It actually sounds like someone that started on a different instrument - and I mean that in a positive way.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 5, 2021 11:31:36 GMT -6
I’m sure the egos were enormous…sounds like Paul and John just had their own take on what should be played…I’m sure they had preferences on fills and the like. But really who cares. That video up top was great. Great parts that didn’t get in the way. Did Paul McCartney Tell Ringo How to Play Drums on Beatles Songs? July 21, 2019 Did Paul McCartney Tell Ringo How to Play Drums on Beatles Songs? By the time The Beatles got to the late 1960s, they were squabbling about a number of things. Among them, George Harrison greatly resented the lack of respect he got from John Lennon and Paul McCartney. That led to arguments with Paul and a bona fide fistfight with John in early 1969. But the list didn’t begin to end there. John was beyond tired with Paul’s so-called “granny music” and let him know about it whenever they worked on tracks like “Maxwell’s Silver Hammer.” Meanwhile, Paul was disappointed John wouldn’t let him play on tracks like “Come Together.” As for Ringo Starr, the Beatles’ drummer would get down on himself when he felt he wasn’t playing his best. It didn’t help that Paul and John would criticize him in the studio at these moments. When Paul felt he had ideas for Ringo to try out on drums, he wouldn’t be shy about telling him. The Beatles’ chief engineer witnessed Paul’s “coaching” of Ringo on several occasions. Paul often had suggestions for Ringo on his drum parts. When Ringo replaced Pete Best in 1962, he naturally expected to record with the band at their first session at EMI with producer George Martin. But Martin didn’t consider Ringo ready after hearing him play the drums. (The Beatles had just fired Best for the same reasons.) That meant Ringo played the tambourine while a session drummer hired by Martin worked with the band. And the dings to Ringo’s ego didn’t stop there. In 1966, when Geoff Emerick became the Beatles’ engineer for Revolver, he noticed Paul directing Ringo on the drums for “Tomorrow Never Knows.” Emerick wrote in his book Here, There and Everyhwere that Ringo listened to instructions from other band members for a number of reasons, including because he was “the last of the four Beatles to join.” And Paul was usually the one giving those directions. Following the death of Beatles manager Brian Epstein, Emerick saw Paul’s coaching — all the way down to banging a tambourine so Ringo could keep time — as a noble gesture. However, Ringo would take offense to it soon enough. Complaints about Ringo’s drumming continued through ‘Abbey Road.’ By the time they recorded The White Album (1968), Ringo wasn’t taking kindly to his Paul’s suggestions. In fact,it was part of the reason Ringo walked out on the group in the summer of ’68. It might sound crazy, but John and Paul had complaints with Ringo’s drumming even on the last tracks on the band’s final studio album (the Abbey Road medley John hated so much). Some seven years after welcoming his aboard, they still weren’t above criticizing their drummer. During the part in which “Polythene Pam” ran into “She Came in Through the Bathroom Window,” John actually said Ringo “sounded like Dave Clark.” As Emerick noted, that was certainly not a compliment. After getting the complaints, Ringo stayed late to improve his drum part. Since the Apple studios by then had eight-track equipment, the engineers were able to get his improved drums on the song without erasing the original. But it was not a happy day for Ringo. I've never understood why this is a criticism of Ringo. Every songwriter works with the drummer on their part. I've had a drum part in mind for pretty much every song I've ever written yet I'm a mediocre (at best!) drummer, what am I supposed to do just act like I don't have an idea in mind? To me this just another way that Ringo is the best. He was open-minded enough to listen to what John and Paul were trying to convey in their compositions. Here's the updated score... Ringo - 142 Ringo Haters - 0
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Post by ragan on Mar 5, 2021 11:47:35 GMT -6
Yeah, I mean. Bands are like that. Little annoyances turn into deeply worn grudges after years and years of grinding it out on stages and in studios. They're just complicated entities, bands. Layers upon layers of power structures and relationship dynamics all in service of something completely subjective, aesthetic and fleeting.
For me, it's not that any criticism of Ringo is unfair, it's that most criticism of Ringo misses the point. It's usually technical criticism, that he doesn't have the big bombastic chops of a John Bonham or whatever. I think the Beatles would sound utterly ridiculous with a John Bonham. For the same reason, I think it would be silly to criticize a good metal drummer for not having 'feel' or 'personality' to their playing. They're not supposed to have 'feel', they're supposed to be a ruthless machine, that's the ethos!
Members of his own band trying to get him to play something differently is an entirely separate thing from Guitar Center bros going 'Dude Ringo suuucks!' It's the latter category that I direct my criticism to.
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Post by drumsound on Mar 5, 2021 12:09:05 GMT -6
I once got in a heated discussion with somebody that said the Beatles would have been better with a real drummer like John Bonham... I had a good laugh until I realized he was serious. I love both drummers, but they are NOT interchangeable! No, the opposite. It's so good that what's the point in trying to do anything? I was thinking "oh, I know the type of drum part I'm thinking about... I'll just cue up She Said." Ya, exactly, Ringo in his own drumming way was just as creative as the other Beatles. Fuck yes he was! Ringo is so underrated .... those early recordings especially - holy smokes SO BURNING!! I don't remember the origin, but it may have been when I saw Sir George Martin speak in Chicago, but it may be from another interview. GM was talking about doing the Anthology deals that came out in the late 90s, reviewing the entire Beatles catalog. Realizing how often they were making masters from multiple basic tracks, sometimes quite far apart in take numbers. He was talking about how consistent Ringo was, in the days before every session had a click. He said he called Ringo to tell him just how great his playing and time were to which Ringo said "I know." A similar story, a DJ (Maybe Howard Stern) asked Ringo about being a great drummer and Ringo answered "I was the drummer in The Beatles!" --- I LOVE what Ringo brings to the table, and how much he shaped the sound and the feel of the Beatles entire catalog. EVERYBODY involved brought so much to the table, and Ringo is a link in an incredible strong chain and should never be discounted. I have a plan to make a sign for the studio with the very simple rules I have in place: 1. No Smoking 2. Please do not put headphones on the floor 3. DO NOT DIS RINGO STARR!!!
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Post by ab101 on Mar 5, 2021 12:46:01 GMT -6
As to an early discussion about John Bonham - listen to him on drums with Donavan! I believe John was flexible enough to work with the Beatles. (Hurdy Gurdy man ironically was a song that developed through inspiration from George Harrison.)
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Post by superwack on Mar 5, 2021 12:48:14 GMT -6
Since this is a gear site I just gotta say I LOVE how the cymbals go “GWOOOOOOOSSSSHHHH” from the compressor when Ringo hits a crash
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Post by ragan on Mar 5, 2021 12:53:47 GMT -6
Since this is a gear site I just gotta say I LOVE how the cymbals go “GWOOOOOOOSSSSHHHH” from the compressor when Ringo hits a crash !!! I've spent years of my life trying to emulate that GWOOOOOOOSSSHHHHH and never really nailed it.
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Post by Guitar on Mar 5, 2021 12:53:49 GMT -6
Yeah the drum tones on Ringo recordings are top notch, dynamic mic overheads, big fat muted toms, tube limiters, the whole nine enchiladas.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Mar 5, 2021 12:55:00 GMT -6
Since this is a gear site I just gotta say I LOVE how the cymbals go “GWOOOOOOOSSSSHHHH” from the compressor when Ringo hits a crash So cool. Really bold decision and it just totally makes the song.
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 5, 2021 13:10:53 GMT -6
Since this is a gear site I just gotta say I LOVE how the cymbals go “GWOOOOOOOSSSSHHHH” from the compressor when Ringo hits a crash Yeah, I'm glad Emerick broke the Abbey Road rules on that one.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 5, 2021 13:18:24 GMT -6
I always just assumed the Beatles were like most talented bands with a core of strong song writers and producers, every once in a while somebody would pick up somebody else’s instrument to either demonstrate what they had in mind or just cut the track.
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Post by svart on Mar 5, 2021 13:50:50 GMT -6
Since this is a gear site I just gotta say I LOVE how the cymbals go “GWOOOOOOOSSSSHHHH” from the compressor when Ringo hits a crash A lot of that is the cymbal design of the time. Thicker brass at the edges, raw finish and heavy machining grooves. Modern cymbals are designed with a very different profile. The older cymbals don't sound all that great with modern recording equipment and you need that band-limited slowness in old tube gear to get the swooosh or else you get the bonk sound.
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