I still have issues getting masters really loud

Got any way to convert that into real numbers, like dB? I have zero understanding of LUFS and how they equate to dB.

Otherwise, it's all about small amounts of limiting at each stage, either through direct limiting or through saturation.

This ^^^.

Especially very low sub information in the signal.  Get the Chop Shop plugin, and learn how to use the bump control.  You'll get rid of the unusable extreme LF signal while still getting the LF sounding huge on the "bottom end / bass".  <thumbsup>

One of the mixers I follow usually starts with his mix bus. Ssl buss, some saturation, L1. Each bus like guitars, drums usually getting some saturation and clipping. Snare and kick always getting some clipping and saturation.

Yeah -10LUFS is pretty damn loud. It's louder than most streaming services will allow anyways and it'll just get turned down. Unless it's going to CDs which still can demanding -8 or higher even then -10 is plenty loud.

Or maybe it’s just too ****ing loud with no dynamics.

Am I the only one to find it ironic that music lost the loudness wars only to find that there’s no money to be made from these loud records? I’m thinking of starting a label that releases “mixed but not mastered” recordings and calling it Dynamic Records. Maybe it will start a hip new trend. If you think that’s far fetched remember that in 2021 sea shanties are all the rage.

You're probably right. I'm in the minority here, but I really love super loud/squashed masters. The stuff I reference (American Idiot, for example) is smashed to bits, but still sounds massive. It's a tall order to try and replicate that ITB, but it's what I aim for regardless... the tricks I mentioned above have helped me get closer.

At the same time, I see no reason why folk, jazz, or singer-songwriter stuff would ever need to be as loud as a Katy Perry song.

I feel like this is the only discussion we have on RGO that asks “What gear will make my music sound worse?”

Try out Airwindows NC17.

Reading a bit about LUFS, apparently the frequency weighted averaging is done over a short time and a long time and integrated together. Apparently you can fool the LUFS measurement by having breaks in your songs every few seconds and it will average lower LUFS than a mix that's dense throughout but it will be louder sounding overall. Also apparently people are using this knowledge to write songs that have a lot of breaks to fool the LUFS systems on the streaming platforms and getting songs that are just a bit louder than their peers.  It's kinda funny that folks have already gamed the system designed to keep them from making things louder.

Anyway, from what I read the biggest reason for having high LUFS but low apparent loudness is low end below about 40hz. I'd prescribe to the missing fundamental trick (like RBass) to make it seem like there's more bass and then cut the real deep stuff from the mix.

Also, tkaitkai , I agree 100%.  Louder is better for me as well, but most folks don't understand that getting a great loud mix is MUCH HARDER than getting a good soft mix.  It's not anywhere as simple as just compression and limiting the soft mix, which is why so many have a hard time getting good loud mixes..  You have to build the mix to be loud from the ground up.  you can't just send a soft and dynamic mix to a mastering engineer and expect a great loud mix either.

The hardest mix to do is a solid sounding loud mix.

^^^ This

I know a guy who can help. He can make your masters REALLY loud without losing all dynamics or introducing/inducing much distortion.
But it's what he does.

A lot of people don't get the masters they want because of what they neglect to do in the mixing stage.
HPF @ 29-30hz LPF @ 16.1Khz

99.999% of people can't even hear below 40hz or above 12khz anyhow. Why waste all the sonic real estate for your pets?