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Post by johneppstein on Feb 4, 2021 16:09:48 GMT -6
I just can't understand why anyone would want their song that loud, especially these days when music is normalized nearly everywhere. These super loud mixes just sound like crap to me, and when they get normalized, they sound weak too. What are people trying to achieve with these super loud masters? What are they trying to achieve? Being louder than Dog. Why do that? Probably deafness.
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 4, 2021 16:13:05 GMT -6
I just can't understand why anyone would want their song that loud, especially these days when music is normalized nearly everywhere. These super loud mixes just sound like crap to me, and when they get normalized, they sound weak too. What are people trying to achieve with these super loud masters? To a large extent, I think people have just gotten acclimated to the sound of highly compressed music. When it’s done well, it does have the virtue of sounding consistently “exciting,” but at the expense of having less nuance and movement. It leads to kind of a ridiculous game trying to find workarounds beyond volume to give the chorus more energy than the verse when the verse is already loud to begin with! It’s not appropriate for everything, or even most things necessarily, but it is expected these days, for better and worse, and some folks have found artful ways to do it without making things lifeless and squashed. Until there’s a universal standard for loudness and a transparent method for normalization, I don’t think the loudness wars are going anywhere. It's because they're trying to make it more "exciting" using technology that actually makes it more boring, but is still much easier that learning to play impressively well.
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Post by jmoose on Feb 4, 2021 20:45:51 GMT -6
The better mastering guys I use return tracks that sound almost like remixes to me, while retaining all of my intent. Generally there are really only two kinds of people who send tracks for mastering... One camp is people who love the mixes as is and aren't looking for any changes. The other camp is people who are unhappy with the mixes and ARE looking for a change. I've talked to a few mastering cats about this and it can sometimes be incredibly difficult to tell who's looking for what. Started to realize this years ago when I sent an EP to Brad Blackwood and when it came back the artist said - Why did I spend all that money for mastering when it doesn't sound any different? Brad and I were like, well wasn't that the point? Turned out, after asking a zillion questions that no... he was unhappy with the mixes in the first place. Mixes which he attended by the way...
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Post by svart on Feb 4, 2021 23:14:37 GMT -6
The better mastering guys I use return tracks that sound almost like remixes to me, while retaining all of my intent. Generally there are really only two kinds of people who send tracks for mastering... One camp is people who love the mixes as is and aren't looking for any changes. The other camp is people who are unhappy with the mixes and ARE looking for a change. I've talked to a few mastering cats about this and it can sometimes be incredibly difficult to tell who's looking for what. Started to realize this years ago when I sent an EP to Brad Blackwood and when it came back the artist said - Why did I spend all that money for mastering when it doesn't sound any different? Brad and I were like, well wasn't that the point? Turned out, after asking a zillion questions that no... he was unhappy with the mixes in the first place. Mixes which he attended by the way... Lol. I had a guy track a whole ep by himself. I did zero producing, just recorded what he wrote. We did two nights a week for like a month and a half. He rewrote a couple of the songs on the fly. He gave me very specific desires for every piece of the record. We mixed as we went. He paid as we went. In the end he said he was super super happy with how it turned out. He put it online and over the course of a month he got a couple dozen listens and was rather upset. He then said it was the mixing that ruined his songs and why nobody listened to them and when I asked him why on Earth would be say that after he was there at every session and we mixed things together as we went.. he said that he felt pushed into the mix decisions by me. I don't think I made a single suggestion, and every mix move was dictated by the client.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Feb 5, 2021 11:06:48 GMT -6
Generally there are really only two kinds of people who send tracks for mastering... One camp is people who love the mixes as is and aren't looking for any changes. The other camp is people who are unhappy with the mixes and ARE looking for a change. I've talked to a few mastering cats about this and it can sometimes be incredibly difficult to tell who's looking for what. Started to realize this years ago when I sent an EP to Brad Blackwood and when it came back the artist said - Why did I spend all that money for mastering when it doesn't sound any different? Brad and I were like, well wasn't that the point? Turned out, after asking a zillion questions that no... he was unhappy with the mixes in the first place. Mixes which he attended by the way... Lol. I had a guy track a whole ep by himself. I did zero producing, just recorded what he wrote. We did two nights a week for like a month and a half. He rewrote a couple of the songs on the fly. He gave me very specific desires for every piece of the record. We mixed as we went. He paid as we went. In the end he said he was super super happy with how it turned out. He put it online and over the course of a month he got a couple dozen listens and was rather upset. He then said it was the mixing that ruined his songs and why nobody listened to them and when I asked him why on Earth would be say that after he was there at every session and we mixed things together as we went.. he said that he felt pushed into the mix decisions by me. I don't think I made a single suggestion, and every mix move was dictated by the client. All the producing and mixing and engineering in the word isn’t going to change anything if the songs don’t resonate with people. It’s crazy when people think that just because they spent money and time on a record that it deserves to get listens. Sometimes it just doesn’t. And that’s okay. If you’re doing it for art then that’s something you’ve got to come to terms with. Getting pissed at the engineer is just ....well it’s stupid.
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Post by johneppstein on Feb 5, 2021 15:35:28 GMT -6
Generally there are really only two kinds of people who send tracks for mastering... One camp is people who love the mixes as is and aren't looking for any changes. The other camp is people who are unhappy with the mixes and ARE looking for a change. I've talked to a few mastering cats about this and it can sometimes be incredibly difficult to tell who's looking for what. Started to realize this years ago when I sent an EP to Brad Blackwood and when it came back the artist said - Why did I spend all that money for mastering when it doesn't sound any different? Brad and I were like, well wasn't that the point? Turned out, after asking a zillion questions that no... he was unhappy with the mixes in the first place. Mixes which he attended by the way... Lol. I had a guy track a whole ep by himself. I did zero producing, just recorded what he wrote. We did two nights a week for like a month and a half. He rewrote a couple of the songs on the fly. He gave me very specific desires for every piece of the record. We mixed as we went. He paid as we went. In the end he said he was super super happy with how it turned out. He put it online and over the course of a month he got a couple dozen listens and was rather upset. He then said it was the mixing that ruined his songs and why nobody listened to them and when I asked him why on Earth would be say that after he was there at every session and we mixed things together as we went.. he said that he felt pushed into the mix decisions by me. I don't think I made a single suggestion, and every mix move was dictated by the client. Some people have real problems with taking responsibility.
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Post by nick8801 on Feb 6, 2021 6:23:06 GMT -6
That’s a hard pill to swallow....I’ve worked with people who’ve tried every studio in town. What they’re really looking for is a producer who can help them sound better. Not an engineer who will make them sound like themselves.
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Post by EmRR on Feb 6, 2021 11:14:00 GMT -6
That’s a hard pill to swallow....I’ve worked with people who’ve tried every studio in town. What they’re really looking for is a producer who can help them sound better. Not an engineer who will make them sound like themselves. ....and they can't afford a producer......nor would they relinquish control substantially enough to get results.....and they will blame everyone else after the fact for anything perceived less than great.....
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Post by svart on Feb 6, 2021 11:32:30 GMT -6
That’s a hard pill to swallow....I’ve worked with people who’ve tried every studio in town. What they’re really looking for is a producer who can help them sound better. Not an engineer who will make them sound like themselves. ....and they can't afford a producer......nor would they relinquish control substantially enough to get results.....and they will blame everyone else after the fact for anything perceived less than great..... It's usually the folks who need the producer who don't want them. I think it's the same lack of self esteem that drives the control freak aspect in some artists is the same that compels them to avoid producers that might offer criticism detrimental to self esteem..
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Post by EmRR on Feb 6, 2021 11:46:36 GMT -6
I had a band once that decided they needed a producer.....after I'd been producer (unsuccessfully) and tracking was done. They didn't like any of my decisions, but it was all indirect passive-aggressive. They ditched their best 2 songs. What can ya do. I tried to resign and hand over the tracks, couldn't even get out of it, mixed the mess and they put it out. Dissatisfying on all levels. There was potential there, but they didn't want to be themselves, they wanted to be another thing they were incapable of. If you replaced 3/4 or the band members with studio players, and hired an arranger....they could have gotten what they wanted, but then they'd have been dissatisfied it wasn't them. Some can't be won.
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Post by donr on Feb 6, 2021 12:03:45 GMT -6
The wry irony is, commercial failure has almost nothing to do with the mixing or production. Great sounding music fails commercially, every day.
The neck of the funnel of commercial success is really small. Of course bad sounding music has no shot at all.
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Post by svart on Feb 6, 2021 13:30:04 GMT -6
I had a band once that decided they needed a producer.....after I'd been producer (unsuccessfully) and tracking was done. They didn't like any of my decisions, but it was all indirect passive-aggressive. They ditched their best 2 songs. What can ya do. I tried to resign and hand over the tracks, couldn't even get out of it, mixed the mess and they put it out. Dissatisfying on all levels. There was potential there, but they didn't want to be themselves, they wanted to be another thing they were incapable of. If you replaced 3/4 or the band members with studio players, and hired an arranger....they could have gotten what they wanted, but then they'd have been dissatisfied it wasn't them. Some can't be won. That's part of the reason I DI everything these days. The bands, usually the younger ones, chase the tones and styles of whatever their favorite bands are because they don't want to just be themselves. At this point I've stopped fighting it and just try to give them what they want while making them sound the best I can. The few that don't break up quickly tend to figure out their own sound pretty quickly. However, I recorded two records for this one band and they decided they needed a real producer who has a grammy. He essentially wrote their whole third record for them and now they are doing their 4th record with him because the third one had some decent exposure. he's doing a ton of the writing on the 4th record now and they don't sound anything like they did and I get the feeling that they're only going with it due to the promise of stardom.
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Post by donr on Feb 6, 2021 13:49:30 GMT -6
After BOC's "Agents Of Fortune," which had 'Reaper' on it, we had an opportunity to work with producer Mutt Lange. He wanted to do it, and so did we. Unfortunately the scheduling didn't work out. If it had, the arc of my career likely would have been different.
I would have been happy to have Mutt write and play every note on that hypothetical BOC record. As long as I could watch and see what he was doing.
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Post by nick8801 on Feb 6, 2021 14:18:06 GMT -6
That’s a hard pill to swallow....I’ve worked with people who’ve tried every studio in town. What they’re really looking for is a producer who can help them sound better. Not an engineer who will make them sound like themselves. ....and they can't afford a producer......nor would they relinquish control substantially enough to get results.....and they will blame everyone else after the fact for anything perceived less than great..... Yes! Exactly what happened!
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Feb 6, 2021 22:22:08 GMT -6
That’s a hard pill to swallow....I’ve worked with people who’ve tried every studio in town. What they’re really looking for is a producer who can help them sound better. Not an engineer who will make them sound like themselves. The Paula Abdul syndrome, lol.
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Feb 6, 2021 22:23:07 GMT -6
After BOC's "Agents Of Fortune," which had 'Reaper' on it, we had an opportunity to work with producer Mutt Lange. He wanted to do it, and so did we. Unfortunately the scheduling didn't work out. If it had, the arc of my career likely would have been different. I would have been happy to have Mutt write and play every note on that hypothetical BOC record. As long as I could watch and see what he was doing. Incredible! Wow, what that could have been.
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