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Post by mulmany on Sept 20, 2020 20:14:22 GMT -6
And just remember the rule: "outs" over "ins." Except for outboard then they go in over out! At least that was how I was taught.
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Post by plainofjars on Sept 20, 2020 20:15:56 GMT -6
Haha for sure. So what do you do about phantom power then? In an all-outboard-preamp situation (no console) where all your preamp inputs are patched into the patchbay, what's the most convenient way of getting your phantom mic into the preamp? I don't wanna have to be removing stuff from the bay when I need to do that... Just as Dan said. Never turn it on until everything is connected. Always turn it off before removing the connection too. Anecdotally, what is the likelihood of damaging the mic or the preamp if someone forgets to do this?
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Post by mulmany on Sept 20, 2020 20:20:56 GMT -6
Just as Dan said. Never turn it on until everything is connected. Always turn it off before removing the connection too. Anecdotally, what is the likelihood of damaging the mic or the preamp if someone forgets to do this? Very rare... The issue is old vintage ribbon mics and popping your speakers if you forget to turn 48v off. In some cases people could accidentally patch a pre amp input into a line input and that could cause a problem.
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Post by plainofjars on Sept 20, 2020 20:22:41 GMT -6
Anecdotally, what is the likelihood of damaging the mic or the preamp if someone forgets to do this? In some cases people could accidentally patch a pre amp input into a line input and that could cause a problem. I could see myself doing that lol. And I do have 1 or 2 vintage ribbons.
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Post by Quint on Sept 20, 2020 20:22:58 GMT -6
My solution has been to use standalone phantom power supplies near the mics in the live room. Then there is NO reason to ever even need to use the phantom power on your preamps, thus negating any phantom power in the patchbay concerns.
Matter of fact, I am soon going to have the phantom power on my preamps effectively disabled, due to some rewiring where I will have the shields lifted at all preamp inputs.
I say run your mics though your patchbay and just take the appropriate caution. Plenty of people do it.
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Post by drbill on Sept 20, 2020 20:32:21 GMT -6
So what do you do about phantom power then?. Personally, I 100% do my best to keep phantom out of the patch bay. Due to the hybrid nature of how I mix, things get patched all over in non-traditional chains. Having phantom hit something before your mic pre that's not a mic is sometimes OK, and sometimes not. At LTL, when we have a "mic/line" switch, switching to line disables phantom so it can't get through. That's all well and good, but unfortunately, many times things get patched and you were not aware 48v was depressed. I don't like seeing spirit smoke exiting my gear....
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Post by drbill on Sept 20, 2020 20:33:30 GMT -6
My solution has been to use standalone phantom power supplies near the mics in the live room. An excellent solution, albeit one that can get expensive. I'm not against people running 48v thru their patchbay and going all kinds of places it was never intended to go, but I'm not going to consciously do it. And I don't care what the running consensus is on EITHER forum.
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Post by Quint on Sept 20, 2020 20:40:51 GMT -6
My solution has been to use standalone phantom power supplies near the mics in the live room. An excellent solution, albeit one that can get expensive. I'm not against people running 48v thru their patchbay and going all kinds of places it was never intended to go, but I'm not going to consciously do it. And I don't care what the running consensus is on EITHER forum. Same here. I dont ever consciously (or unconsciously) run phantom through the patchbay, for obvious reasons. But I'm not sure why you think it's expensive? A two or even four channel standalone phantom power supply can be had for a few hundred bucks.
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Post by drbill on Sept 20, 2020 20:43:06 GMT -6
An excellent solution, albeit one that can get expensive. I'm not against people running 48v thru their patchbay and going all kinds of places it was never intended to go, but I'm not going to consciously do it. And I don't care what the running consensus is on EITHER forum. Same here. I dont ever consciously (or unconsciously) run phantom through the patchbay, for obvious reasons. But I'm not sure why you think it's expensive? A two or even four channel standalone phantom power supply can be had for a few hundred bucks. yeah, I know it's not mega expensive. I just happened to be thinking about those Coil phantom boxes though..... Depends on how many condensers you're running.
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Post by Quint on Sept 20, 2020 20:51:40 GMT -6
Same here. I dont ever consciously (or unconsciously) run phantom through the patchbay, for obvious reasons. But I'm not sure why you think it's expensive? A two or even four channel standalone phantom power supply can be had for a few hundred bucks. yeah, I know it's not mega expensive. I just happened to be thinking about those Coil phantom boxes though..... Depends on how many condensers you're running. Yeah, those Coil boxes are a little more expensive, but their not out of this world expensive. $450 for four channels isn't terrible. Though you can get other phantom supplies for cheaper that I think would do just as good a job. I have a four channel Audio Technica that gets the job done well. Rolls even makes a six or eight channel one.
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Post by drbill on Sept 20, 2020 21:25:33 GMT -6
yeah, I know it's not mega expensive. I just happened to be thinking about those Coil phantom boxes though..... Depends on how many condensers you're running. Yeah, those Coil boxes are a little more expensive, but their not out of this world expensive. $450 for four channels isn't terrible. Though you can get other phantom supplies for cheaper that I think would do just as good a job. I have a four channel Audio Technica that gets the job done well. Rolls even makes a six or eight channel one. Yup. But for the most people who don't even know or care about running 48v thru their bays, $450 or even $100 probably seems excessive. For you and me - worth it. <thumbsup>
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Post by jeremygillespie on Sept 20, 2020 21:42:48 GMT -6
So the only risk occurs while the jack is being inserted into the socket then, right? There's no problem passing phantom power through the patchbay once the jack is in? Sorry, just want to make sure I'm reading correctly. Correct - it’s perfectly fine to run phantom through the bay. And for the most part, if your gear and mics are all pin 2 hot - which they SHOULD be, and if not you should remedy that, the transformer in the ribbon mic will block any dc from passing through to the ribbon element. So - phantom will not hurt a ribbon mic (if everything is wired up professionally and properly) First thing I do when I walk into a room I’ve not used before is check phase of outboard gear to make sure I’m good. Running tone out of the console and into every piece of gear can seem like a pain in the ass... but boy is it worth it in the long run (also make assistants check all cables to make sure they are wired properly)
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Post by Blackdawg on Sept 20, 2020 22:23:47 GMT -6
So the only risk occurs while the jack is being inserted into the socket then, right? There's no problem passing phantom power through the patchbay once the jack is in? Sorry, just want to make sure I'm reading correctly. That is correct! This is because the +48VDC from the phantom power is on the tip of the TT plug. As you insert the cable into the patchbay, the tip can touch the sleeve and usually touches pin 2 before you push it all the way in. So as long as everything is hooked up first. Then you can power on phantom with no issues. Power it down before removing the patch cable as well.
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Post by soundintheround on Sept 23, 2020 16:46:35 GMT -6
One way around this is don’t use phantom power.
My studio is phantom power-free (all tube mics, plus dynamics and ribbons) Also I do this because a lot of the vintage preamps I tend to like don’t have it. I do have 2 shure condensers for toms and use an old Sony stand-alone power supply for those.
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Post by johneppstein on Sept 24, 2020 13:02:11 GMT -6
Had no idea so many ppl were patching mics directly into their patchbays. I thought that was strictly verboten. Wow! No comment. Except that laziness usually wins.
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Post by johneppstein on Sept 24, 2020 13:05:16 GMT -6
Just as Dan said. Never turn it on until everything is connected. Always turn it off before removing the connection too. Anecdotally, what is the likelihood of damaging the mic or the preamp if someone forgets to do this? The preamp, not much. The mic, it depends on what kind it is. If it's a vintage ribbon with a grounded center tap the ribbon will likely go *poof*. Some modern ribbons, too.
There's a very small chance of damaging the phantom circuit in the preamp if it's not well designed.
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Post by johneppstein on Sept 24, 2020 13:28:55 GMT -6
To Hell with GS. We have our "studio mic lines" at the top of our patchbay normaled on channels 1-16 to our API console. I think 17-24 go to our Grace. I learned that long before there was a GS or an internet for that matter. It came out of REP magazine back in the '70s.
It's true that it's not a serious problem if only real professionals patch things in your studio, but if there are interns or other untrained people it's dangerous. And everybody makes a mistake sometime. It's a corollary of Murphy's Law and, as the very great engineers at Crown wrote in the original DC300 manual, in cases of conflict, Murphy's Law supersedes Ohm's. Therefore I try to eliminate any chances of Murphy sneaking into the studio.
If you believe that nobody will ever make a mistake in your studio, then go ahead. I am not that confident.
Of course, when you spend years as a service tech you get to see everybody's mistakes.
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Post by Michael O. on Sept 24, 2020 19:35:30 GMT -6
Having mic tie lines patched (usually normalled) into the console or outboard preamps has been the only setup I’ve seen in any studio, including my own. I’m not sure I know what the alternative would be; somehow disconnecting the preamp input from the bay and then manually plugging in a mic cable? Most consoles I’ve used don’t even have an input separate from the patchbay (i.e., the modules’ ins are wired internally to the balanced TT bay, there’re no XLR connectors involved outside of the live room). If I need to plug a mic in in the control room I generally just use an XLR -> TT cable.
As for phantom power, using standalone supplies (48v phantom, 12v tonadier, tube-specific, etc.) near the source has always been my preference. Makes signal flow clear, allows for high quality supplies, and obviates any problems that could arise by blindly applying phantom from in the control room.
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Post by EmRR on Sept 24, 2020 19:58:42 GMT -6
Just as Dan said. Never turn it on until everything is connected. Always turn it off before removing the connection too. Anecdotally, what is the likelihood of damaging the mic or the preamp if someone forgets to do this? Go find the 'Phantom Menace' AES papers, there's a part 1 and a part 2, describes the mechanism that can cause big damage. A spike of several AMPS of DC power can discharge for one condition. Likelihood? For you to decide. I won't ever be putting mics through a TRS patchbay. XLR bays for mic lines (coming from a live room to a control room) and preamp inputs are the best answer to me.
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Post by rowmat on Sept 25, 2020 4:12:48 GMT -6
Anecdotally, what is the likelihood of damaging the mic or the preamp if someone forgets to do this? Go find the 'Phantom Menace' AES papers, there's a part 1 and a part 2, describes the mechanism that can cause big damage. A spike of several AMPS of DC power can discharge for one condition. Likelihood? For you to decide. I won't ever be putting mics through a TRS patchbay. XLR bays for mic lines (coming from a live room to a control room) and preamp inputs are the best answer to me. As per this... realgearonline.com/post/239306
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Post by EmRR on Sept 25, 2020 8:02:15 GMT -6
Proper
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Post by Ward on Sept 25, 2020 8:11:20 GMT -6
Had no idea so many ppl were patching mics directly into their patchbays. I thought that was strictly verboten. Wow! No comment. Except that laziness usually wins. but what about having microphones set up and plugged into the patch panel feeding into the central bays in the studio and then patching the miclines into preamps also connected to the patch bays, and being able to change preamp selection if something isn't working, and swapping back and forth with comprssors and/or EQs etc in the signal chain in order to get the desired results? Are you suggesting it's lazy to have a multitude of options at your fingertips?
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Post by EmRR on Sept 25, 2020 10:27:38 GMT -6
No comment. Except that laziness usually wins. but what about having microphones set up and plugged into the patch panel feeding into the central bays in the studio and then patching the miclines into preamps also connected to the patch bays, and being able to change preamp selection if something isn't working, and swapping back and forth with comprssors and/or EQs etc in the signal chain in order to get the desired results? Are you suggesting it's lazy to have a multitude of options at your fingertips? Just that it's better for incoming mics to be on an XLR bay, and preamp inputs to be on an XLR bay.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Sept 25, 2020 11:44:47 GMT -6
I've got a snake on the wall of my live room. The ends land on a pair of XLR patchbays in my control room. I have 3 more XLR patchbays with the inputs to my preamps. Preamp outputs come up on the TRS bays, normalled to my console line inputs.
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Post by johneppstein on Sept 25, 2020 13:09:51 GMT -6
Having mic tie lines patched (usually normalled) into the console or outboard preamps has been the only setup I’ve seen in any studio, including my own. I’m not sure I know what the alternative would be; somehow disconnecting the preamp input from the bay and then manually plugging in a mic cable? Most consoles I’ve used don’t even have an input separate from the patchbay (i.e., the modules’ ins are wired internally to the balanced TT bay, there’re no XLR connectors involved outside of the live room). If I need to plug a mic in in the control room I generally just use an XLR -> TT cable. As for phantom power, using standalone supplies (48v phantom, 12v tonadier, tube-specific, etc.) near the source has always been my preference. Makes signal flow clear, allows for high quality supplies, and obviates any problems that could arise by blindly applying phantom from in the control room. Good solution.
The way I do it, and have seen in some older studios, is to use XLR panels for mics, not TT or TRS. Or to simply keep lines patched to channels.
I think that the "no mic lines through TRS/TT bays is actually a much older way of doing things - I learned it, as I said, back in the '70s when most ribbon mics did have grounded center taps and hence were susceptible. In the '80s mic manufacturers stopped doing that for the most part, so it became of less importance. Since I do have a few older ribbon mics I prefer the old way, for safety. The alternative is to mod your vintage ribbons.
If you want to run, say, a comp before the pre it's no problem, since compressors don't output phantom on the input.
Also in older studios the use of outboard preamps was not so prevalent, so mic lines were often connected directly to the console.
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