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Post by johneppstein on Sept 20, 2020 14:12:58 GMT -6
Or hard solder. Really not that much more inconvenient than Elco/EDACs, really, especially on Switchcraft bays with easily removeable (one screw) jacks. Well...Elco's ARE hard soldered at the jacks. But when it comes to changing things, moving racks or bays, reconfiguring your gear, hard soldered snakes are HUGELY more inconvenient. Of course. But who recofigures their studio very often? Besides remote guys, of course. If you do a lot of remote it makes perfect sense.
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Post by drbill on Sept 20, 2020 14:21:32 GMT -6
Well...Elco's ARE hard soldered at the jacks. But when it comes to changing things, moving racks or bays, reconfiguring your gear, hard soldered snakes are HUGELY more inconvenient. But who recofigures their studio very often? Way more often than I ever expected or wanted to.
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Post by plainofjars on Sept 20, 2020 14:47:57 GMT -6
Had no idea so many ppl were patching mics directly into their patchbays. I thought that was strictly verboten. Wow!
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Post by rowmat on Sept 20, 2020 15:20:31 GMT -6
I built custom XLR patch panels (see bottom two panels) to allow our mics to be connected to outboard micpres via XLR patch cables.
These were tied back to the studio mic input panels in the live room with the micpre inputs on a second panel below the mic panel.
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Post by Blackdawg on Sept 20, 2020 15:35:13 GMT -6
Had no idea so many ppl were patching mics directly into their patchbays. I thought that was strictly verboten. Wow! Since when? Every studio I've worked it has wall plates in the studio and those just come up on the patch bays. Either normaled or half normalled to the console and you can patch to any out board preamp you like. Pretty standard protocol I think.
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Post by plainofjars on Sept 20, 2020 15:39:45 GMT -6
Had no idea so many ppl were patching mics directly into their patchbays. I thought that was strictly verboten. Wow! Since when? Every studio I've worked it has wall plates in the studio and those just come up on the patch bays. Either normaled or half normalled to the console and you can patch to any out board preamp you like. Pretty standard protocol I think. Are you talking about designated XLR mic unbalanced patchbays? Sure. I thought the folks above were saying “nah it’s cool to just plug it right into the same patchbay all your outboard goes through.” You really haven’t seen admonitions against the latter? Maybe you don’t visit the Forum That Shall Not Be Named..
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Post by jeremygillespie on Sept 20, 2020 16:23:42 GMT -6
Had no idea so many ppl were patching mics directly into their patchbays. I thought that was strictly verboten. Wow! Since when? Every studio I've worked it has wall plates in the studio and those just come up on the patch bays. Either normaled or half normalled to the console and you can patch to any out board preamp you like. Pretty standard protocol I think. I’ve literally never walked into a studio that didn’t have the wall panel xlr go right into the patchbay normalled to the console mic preamps. This discussion always confuses me.
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Post by Ward on Sept 20, 2020 18:06:38 GMT -6
Or hard solder. Really not that much more inconvenient than Elco/EDACs, really, especially on Switchcraft bays with easily removeable (one screw) jacks. Well...Elco's ARE hard soldered at the jacks. But when it comes to changing things, moving racks or bays, reconfiguring your gear, hard soldered snakes are HUGELY more inconvenient. And a ton more work too. Kind of unnecessary work if you use high quality db25 snakes and are very careful with them.
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Post by Ward on Sept 20, 2020 18:08:55 GMT -6
Since when? Every studio I've worked it has wall plates in the studio and those just come up on the patch bays. Either normaled or half normalled to the console and you can patch to any out board preamp you like. Pretty standard protocol I think. I’ve literally never walked into a studio that didn’t have the wall panel xlr go right into the patchbay normalled to the console mic preamps. This discussion always confuses me. That's because you're an actual professional with pro experience. I find plenty of agreement with those of us who follow standard convention and know why it's a standard convention.
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Post by drbill on Sept 20, 2020 18:14:14 GMT -6
Well...Elco's ARE hard soldered at the jacks. But when it comes to changing things, moving racks or bays, reconfiguring your gear, hard soldered snakes are HUGELY more inconvenient. And a ton more work too. Kind of unnecessary work if you use high quality db25 snakes and are very careful with them. Harder than hard soldering snakes directly to TT lugs??? Hahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaa!!!! I think not Ward. I've done thousands of connections of both. Soldering snakes directly to TT lugs was the dumbest thing I've ever done in studio life, and I still kick myself for it. Which brings us to multi connector rear panels and the DB vs Elco debate.... I hate DB25 snakes as much as I hate cheap Chinese mics. Maybe more. Yeah, I think more.... Nothing but problems with them here. Plus the fact that there are 3X's as many snakes rolling around. And really, once you learn, Elco's are simple and easy. Intimidating at first, but really well designed and simple.
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Post by Ward on Sept 20, 2020 18:37:12 GMT -6
And a ton more work too. Kind of unnecessary work if you use high quality db25 snakes and are very careful with them. Harder than hard soldering snakes directly to TT lugs??? Hahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaa!!!! I think not Ward. I've done thousands of connections of both. Soldering snakes directly to TT lugs was the dumbest thing I've ever done in studio life, and I still kick myself for it. Which brings us to multi connector rear panels and the DB vs Elco debate.... I hate DB25 snakes as much as I hate cheap Chinese mics. Maybe more. Yeah, I think more.... Nothing but problems with them here. Plus the fact that there are 3X's as many snakes rolling around. And really, once you learn, Elco's are simple and easy. Intimidating at first, but really well designed and simple. Elcos are great. Just saying I've relatively lucky and found db25s to be capable and usable. Plus it's an adopted standard. And less of a head-ache . . . for me.
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Post by drbill on Sept 20, 2020 18:51:06 GMT -6
Harder than hard soldering snakes directly to TT lugs??? Hahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaa!!!! I think not Ward . I've done thousands of connections of both. Soldering snakes directly to TT lugs was the dumbest thing I've ever done in studio life, and I still kick myself for it. Which brings us to multi connector rear panels and the DB vs Elco debate.... I hate DB25 snakes as much as I hate cheap Chinese mics. Maybe more. Yeah, I think more.... Nothing but problems with them here. Plus the fact that there are 3X's as many snakes rolling around. And really, once you learn, Elco's are simple and easy. Intimidating at first, but really well designed and simple. Elcos are great. Just saying I've relatively lucky and found db25s to be capable and usable. Plus it's an adopted standard. And less of a head-ache . . . for me. They have been adopted, that's for sure. The cheapest way to get a quantity of outputs out of your gear!!
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Post by Blackdawg on Sept 20, 2020 19:27:41 GMT -6
Since when? Every studio I've worked it has wall plates in the studio and those just come up on the patch bays. Either normaled or half normalled to the console and you can patch to any out board preamp you like. Pretty standard protocol I think. Are you talking about designated XLR mic unbalanced patchbays? Sure. I thought the folks above were saying “nah it’s cool to just plug it right into the same patchbay all your outboard goes through.” You really haven’t seen admonitions against the latter? Maybe you don’t visit the Forum That Shall Not Be Named.. Nope. And anyone that says that's not something to do I'd start questioning their "expertise". There is only really one thing that is "risky" in a patchbay and that Phantom power. And that is only because a TT plugs tip can touch other parts of the socket before it is seated correctly. But that's it. Just don't patch with phantom power on and you're good. A microphone generates either nothing because it needs phantom power and when it is powered it's still micro volts or micro volts from dynamic or ribbon. That is never going to hurt anything. Thats what a preamp is for is to bring those micro volts up to line level and even then you're not going to hurt anything. Hell you can use some compressors as mic pre amps they have so much gain and some people do do that.
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Post by Blackdawg on Sept 20, 2020 19:28:08 GMT -6
Since when? Every studio I've worked it has wall plates in the studio and those just come up on the patch bays. Either normaled or half normalled to the console and you can patch to any out board preamp you like. Pretty standard protocol I think. I’ve literally never walked into a studio that didn’t have the wall panel xlr go right into the patchbay normalled to the console mic preamps. This discussion always confuses me. yep agreed, on both points.
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Post by plainofjars on Sept 20, 2020 19:31:53 GMT -6
Are you talking about designated XLR mic unbalanced patchbays? Sure. I thought the folks above were saying “nah it’s cool to just plug it right into the same patchbay all your outboard goes through.” You really haven’t seen admonitions against the latter? Maybe you don’t visit the Forum That Shall Not Be Named.. Nope. And anyone that says that's not something to do I'd start questioning their "expertise". There is only really one thing that is "risky" in a patchbay and that Phantom power. And that is only because a TT plugs tip can touch other parts of the socket before it is seated correctly. But that's it. Just don't patch with phantom power on and you're good. A microphone generates either nothing because it needs phantom power and when it is powered it's still micro volts or micro volts from dynamic or ribbon. That is never going to hurt anything. Thats what a preamp is for is to bring those micro volts up to line level and even then you're not going to hurt anything. Hell you can use some compressors as mic pre amps they have so much gain and some people do do that. Wild! Very much not the consensus in various GS discussions of the topic. I've always avoided it because of those cautions. In fact, I was considering a Radial Gold Digger and Cherry Picker set-up at home out of frustration with not being able to do it all through a patchbay.
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Post by bluegrassdan on Sept 20, 2020 19:39:14 GMT -6
To Hell with GS.
We have our "studio mic lines" at the top of our patchbay normaled on channels 1-16 to our API console. I think 17-24 go to our Grace.
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Post by Blackdawg on Sept 20, 2020 19:44:48 GMT -6
Nope. And anyone that says that's not something to do I'd start questioning their "expertise". There is only really one thing that is "risky" in a patchbay and that Phantom power. And that is only because a TT plugs tip can touch other parts of the socket before it is seated correctly. But that's it. Just don't patch with phantom power on and you're good. A microphone generates either nothing because it needs phantom power and when it is powered it's still micro volts or micro volts from dynamic or ribbon. That is never going to hurt anything. Thats what a preamp is for is to bring those micro volts up to line level and even then you're not going to hurt anything. Hell you can use some compressors as mic pre amps they have so much gain and some people do do that. Wild! Very much not the consensus in various GS discussions of the topic. I've always avoided it because of those cautions. In fact, I was considering a Radial Gold Digger and Cherry Picker set-up at home out of frustration with not being able to do it all through a patchbay. Welcome to the new world Gearslutz is...well...not always right lets say.
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Post by plainofjars on Sept 20, 2020 19:55:56 GMT -6
Wild! Very much not the consensus in various GS discussions of the topic. I've always avoided it because of those cautions. In fact, I was considering a Radial Gold Digger and Cherry Picker set-up at home out of frustration with not being able to do it all through a patchbay. Welcome to the new world Gearslutz is...well...not always right lets say. Haha for sure. So what do you do about phantom power then? In an all-outboard-preamp situation (no console) where all your preamp inputs are patched into the patchbay, what's the most convenient way of getting your phantom mic into the preamp? I don't wanna have to be removing stuff from the bay when I need to do that...
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Post by bluegrassdan on Sept 20, 2020 19:57:20 GMT -6
Just use your phantom power like normal and turn it off before you patch.
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Post by bluegrassdan on Sept 20, 2020 20:02:44 GMT -6
You can barely see in this pic, but notice... Studio mic lines from the tracking room up top followed by preamp inputs, preamp outputs, EQs, inserts, and the channel output goes into your AD converter. If using preamps without a console, your preamp outs can be normalled to your AD.
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Post by bluegrassdan on Sept 20, 2020 20:03:33 GMT -6
And just remember the rule: "outs" over "ins."
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Post by mulmany on Sept 20, 2020 20:09:07 GMT -6
You can also use 3pole switching jacks.
This keeps the ground intact to the pre, but requires a ground isolated bay. This is just a little extra assurance that the bay is acting like a straight through cable. I converted my tie line bay to these ground switching jacks.
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Post by Blackdawg on Sept 20, 2020 20:10:07 GMT -6
Welcome to the new world Gearslutz is...well...not always right lets say. Haha for sure. So what do you do about phantom power then? In an all-outboard-preamp situation (no console) where all your preamp inputs are patched into the patchbay, what's the most convenient way of getting your phantom mic into the preamp? I don't wanna have to be removing stuff from the bay when I need to do that... Just as Dan said. Never turn it on until everything is connected. Always turn it off before removing the connection too.
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Post by plainofjars on Sept 20, 2020 20:11:29 GMT -6
So the only risk occurs while the jack is being inserted into the socket then, right? There's no problem passing phantom power through the patchbay once the jack is in?
Sorry, just want to make sure I'm reading correctly.
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Post by Ward on Sept 20, 2020 20:11:57 GMT -6
You can barely see in this pic, but notice... Studio mic lines from the tracking room up top followed by preamp inputs, preamp outputs, EQs, inserts, and the channel output goes into your AD converter. If using preamps without a console, your preamp outs can be normalled to your AD. View AttachmentI wanna see more pics of your patchbays now! Your labeling is SO NEAT! Got a template you'd share with this poor old boy?
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