|
|
Post by mrholmes on Apr 29, 2020 5:09:59 GMT -6
When you do recording for a living, how often you have to say:
We can't get better than this, lets move on.
The background to this question is, I sometimes struggle to make a decision, but decisions make a production come forward.
Do you know the limitations of the rooms, of the players and their instruments of the gear?
|
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Apr 29, 2020 6:18:44 GMT -6
I don't think I ever get there. I have spent about 12 hours trying to completely re-learn how to play a song I've known forever completely wrong so that I can copy an artist's style and deliver it without squeaks and flubs and poor timing. And it is BRUTAL. And there's no credit for "ghosting". (I do this a lot, anyone else? It pays well, but it's a thankless task)
Limitations are meant to be overcome. Yeah, I only kind of believe that too.
|
|
|
|
Post by mrholmes on Apr 29, 2020 7:11:59 GMT -6
I don't think I ever get there. I have spent about 12 hours trying to completely re-learn how to play a song I've known forever completely wrong so that I can copy an artist's style and deliver it without squeaks and flubs and poor timing. And it is BRUTAL. And there's no credit for "ghosting". (I do this a lot, anyone else? It pays well, but it's a thankless task) Limitations are meant to be overcome. Yeah, I only kind of believe that too.
Reminds me on reading "the war of art".
I don't meant that I don't practice, I do practice a lot.
I meant something is already good, lets say move on @ 80-90% ....
|
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Apr 29, 2020 8:13:43 GMT -6
Pick your battles. If you’re at the lumber yard 6 hours looking for the prettiest 2x4, you’ll never build a house.
|
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Apr 29, 2020 8:58:48 GMT -6
Move the analogy to girls. Or boys. Whatever your thing.
I’m from the school of try and try again. I’d rather not belabor, instead build something better with learned lessons. Too many variables to belabor.
Sometimes clients insist on stupid relative physical placements and mic selections. You have to make it work.
|
|
|
|
Post by drumsound on Apr 29, 2020 9:23:33 GMT -6
Pick your battles. If you’re at the lumber yard 6 hours looking for the prettiest 2x4, you’ll never build a house. I think this is the crux of the biscuit. Experience will (hopefully) teach you when to dig in your heels and when to let things go. That is also related to vision. If you know what you want out of the production, if you have an idea of how you want to the mix to sound, of the emotion you want to put fourth, it makes those decisions easier. Modern production has made us forget soundstage. There is nothing wrong with parts that are subtle, mixed low, and not even noticed until further listens. If the part is something like that, its easier to let things go in favor of moving the whole project forward. If you know its a feature part, spend more time, be more particular, get it right. Also learning the difference between right and perfect becomes more important in these situations. |
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Apr 29, 2020 10:05:12 GMT -6
I don't think I ever get there. I have spent about 12 hours trying to completely re-learn how to play a song I've known forever completely wrong so that I can copy an artist's style and deliver it without squeaks and flubs and poor timing. And it is BRUTAL. And there's no credit for "ghosting". (I do this a lot, anyone else? It pays well, but it's a thankless task) Limitations are meant to be overcome. Yeah, I only kind of believe that too. I doubt BB King spent much time trying to play SRV. I doubt Keith Richards could play Clapton licks. I get what you’re saying, but I also get mrholmes point too. I obsess too much over parts and it paralyzes me. I need to get better at printing and moving on so the creative process isn’t killed. But I also thinks this brings up other issues for modern production. Sometimes I feel like I have to do every freaking thing...from making the coffee to playing every instrument to producing to mixing to mastering to marketing to art to SEO to well, you get the picture. It’s overwhelming. I’ve told this story before, but I remember watching this posthumous David Bowie documentary and it was Carlos Alomar, Robert Fripp, Niles Rogers etc sharing how Bowie would bring in little sketches of his famous songs and then they all said “he would talk about this this and this and I picked up the guitar and played [enter famous lick here].” And it just really hit me - No one (ok maybe Prince) does this all by themselves...surround yourself with talented people and let them help you. I’d love to do that - but I’m not 20 and hanging at bars trading joints for bass parts lol...I also lack an unlimited budget to hire guys...so for me - I start trying to do it all myself. Then things start to sound the same. Then I hate myself and think I suck and get paralyzed...it’s a conundrum. |
|
|
|
Post by swafford on Apr 29, 2020 10:21:38 GMT -6
I barter with pie.  |
|
|
|
Post by swafford on Apr 29, 2020 10:24:33 GMT -6
When you do recording for a living, how often you have to say:
We can't get better than this, lets move on.
The background to this question is, I sometimes struggle to make a decision, but decisions make a production come forward.
Do you know the limitations of the rooms, of the players and their instruments of the gear?
I think it's a matter of knowing your limitations both in terms of talent and time, making compromises and moving on without regret. Frank Zappa was a perfectionist. Have you seen 200 Motels? |
|
|
|
Post by Blackdawg on Apr 29, 2020 10:38:06 GMT -6
For me during a session it's knowing the places that need more takes vs the ones that don't. Then taking into account the amount of time I have with the artist and their overall energy level during the session. Plus trying to control as many outside factors as possible. Piano in tune, room temp/humidity is stable, Food is ordered and waiting when needed, snacks, no interruptions, relaxed atmosphere, confidence, focus.
Somewhere in all of that you just...know. When it's as good as it'll get. Often have to butt heads here and there with the artist that things they can do better, or wants too, and have to be realistic with all the above factors.
Also letting them listen to a take or two helps a lot. I can save a lot of time if they can hear what you hear and talk about what you're going for vs their vision.
|
|
|
|
Post by mrholmes on Apr 29, 2020 10:46:47 GMT -6
I don't think I ever get there. I have spent about 12 hours trying to completely re-learn how to play a song I've known forever completely wrong so that I can copy an artist's style and deliver it without squeaks and flubs and poor timing. And it is BRUTAL. And there's no credit for "ghosting". (I do this a lot, anyone else? It pays well, but it's a thankless task) Limitations are meant to be overcome. Yeah, I only kind of believe that too. I doubt BB King spent much time trying to play SRV. I doubt Keith Richards could play Clapton licks. I get what you’re saying, but I also get mrholmes point too. I obsess too much over parts and it paralyzes me. I need to get better at printing and moving on so the creative process isn’t killed. But I also thinks this brings up other issues for modern production. Sometimes I feel like I have to do every freaking thing...from making the coffee to playing every instrument to producing to mixing to mastering to marketing to art to SEO to well, you get the picture. It’s overwhelming. I’ve told this story before, but I remember watching this posthumous David Bowie documentary and it was Carlos Alomar, Robert Fripp, Niles Rogers etc sharing how Bowie would bring in little sketches of his famous songs and then they all said “he would talk about this this and this and I picked up the guitar and played [enter famous lick here].” And it just really hit me - No one (ok maybe Prince) does this all by themselves...surround yourself with talented people and let them help you. I’d love to do that - but I’m not 20 and hanging at bars trading joints for bass parts lol...I also lack an unlimited budget to hire guys...so for me - I start trying to do it all myself. Then things start to sound the same. Then I hate myself and think I suck and get paralyzed...it’s a conundrum.
I may have one of those days plus my COVID-19 blues.
Sometimes its just simple things... like. I hate this acoustic take.... you ask someone else, and he says... hey it's just fine.
Doing everything alone I often go into hyper focus which sounds cool but is a bad thing....
I may need a break after working for days on the same song....
|
|
|
|
Post by mrholmes on Apr 29, 2020 10:49:27 GMT -6
For me during a session it's knowing the places that need more takes vs the ones that don't. Then taking into account the amount of time I have with the artist and their overall energy level during the session. Plus trying to control as many outside factors as possible. Piano in tune, room temp/humidity is stable, Food is ordered and waiting when needed, snacks, no interruptions, relaxed atmosphere, confidence, focus. Somewhere in all of that you just...know. When it's as good as it'll get. Often have to butt heads here and there with the artist that things they can do better, or wants too, and have to be realistic with all the above factors. Also letting them listen to a take or two helps a lot. I can save a lot of time if they can hear what you hear and talk about what you're going for vs their vision.
Doing it alone may lacks the VISION of second person.
|
|
|
|
Post by plinker on Apr 29, 2020 10:51:03 GMT -6
My current mantra with most things in life is “Perfection is the enemy of Good Enough!”
|
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Apr 29, 2020 11:42:59 GMT -6
Ok then. What was it you needed done again? Apple rhubarb on offer, right? |
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Apr 29, 2020 11:49:11 GMT -6
Many times clients develop visions once it’s mix time, and it’s really too late.
|
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Apr 29, 2020 12:14:41 GMT -6
Early on I had the privilege (curse?) of working with an over the top, brutal, perfectionistic, AAA+ level producer who was a great guy, and amazing musician / arranger. He destroyed musicians and vocalists until he got what he wanted. Which was his vision of perfection - plus maybe 10%. End product wise, it's amazing. Kind of flattened out, and 2 dimensional in a way, but nonetheless amazing. I got industry cred, engineering and studio accolades, and awards with said producer. But it left me cold. It always amazed me that he actually COULD pull more out of musicians, but he did. Not a way I want to work though. Also worked with a world renowned guitarist with incredible hits that we can all sing in our sleep. He asked me to move parts around in 10's of samples to fit his idea of what the groove should be. I learned a LOT from him, but maybe the main thing was that I like humanity in the music. Don't get me wrong, I strive and strive for my vision, but my vision is not perfection - it's musicality. The two are most decidedly NOT the same for me.
|
|
|
|
Post by swafford on Apr 29, 2020 12:20:59 GMT -6
Ok then. What was it you needed done again? Apple rhubarb on offer, right? Hey, we are rolling into rhubarb season. Rhubarb and golden delicious apples macerated in candied ginger syrup and baked into a double crust. |
|
|
|
Post by Blackdawg on Apr 29, 2020 12:22:10 GMT -6
For me during a session it's knowing the places that need more takes vs the ones that don't. Then taking into account the amount of time I have with the artist and their overall energy level during the session. Plus trying to control as many outside factors as possible. Piano in tune, room temp/humidity is stable, Food is ordered and waiting when needed, snacks, no interruptions, relaxed atmosphere, confidence, focus. Somewhere in all of that you just...know. When it's as good as it'll get. Often have to butt heads here and there with the artist that things they can do better, or wants too, and have to be realistic with all the above factors. Also letting them listen to a take or two helps a lot. I can save a lot of time if they can hear what you hear and talk about what you're going for vs their vision.
Doing it alone may lacks the VISION of second person.
Alone is tricky. I think it's a life long quest of what you want and how you think you can get there. but often collaboration is the answer as well in some ways. Never know. You're basically asking "whats the meaning of life" haha No one knows except you. |
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Apr 29, 2020 12:45:25 GMT -6
Doing it alone may lacks the VISION of second person.
Alone is tricky. I think it's a life long quest of what you want and how you think you can get there. but often collaboration is the answer as well in some ways. Never know. You're basically asking "whats the meaning of life" haha No one knows except you. yes. experience and working with other great musicians you respect gives you perspective and helps define what is right and what is wrong - for YOU. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2020 12:45:28 GMT -6
Sometimes you just have to roll with what you've got. I had that now with some of the drum tones on this recording. It was recorded by a known name faux heavy metal producer who usually makes what I would term robot music. The metal samples I've found and bought are either mostly horrible (Slate, drum kit from hell) or would require just as much work (Ugritone, some of hte drumgizmo kits) to fit in the rough mix than polishing what I've got. I'm sure I could find some decent jazzy samples that are loud and fast but that would be a lot of work with something I normally never deal with. The rooms didn't match up on this. I didn't want to make a fake room or deal with it. I'd rather turd polish.
If the band can't play, then I have a major problem because it's not worth my time to learn their parts or get someone else to if they're paying practically nothing for a quick rough mix or turd polish for something that could go on a cassette. I've fuzz clipped guys who couldn't palm mute. Just get out the limiter and clip it. Nobody cared. They got the records they felt their investment in time, creativity, and money deserved.
|
|
|
|
Post by Blackdawg on Apr 29, 2020 13:24:09 GMT -6
Alone is tricky. I think it's a life long quest of what you want and how you think you can get there. but often collaboration is the answer as well in some ways. Never know. You're basically asking "whats the meaning of life" haha No one knows except you. yes. experience and working with other great musicians you respect gives you perspective and helps define what is right and what is wrong - for YOU. Thats a great point. Best way to learn is from others, well that and failure ha. |
|
|
|
Post by drumsound on Apr 29, 2020 16:07:28 GMT -6
Early on I had the privilege (curse?) of working with an over the top, brutal, perfectionistic, AAA+ level producer who was a great guy, and amazing musician / arranger. He destroyed musicians and vocalists until he got what he wanted. Which was his vision of perfection - plus maybe 10%. End product wise, it's amazing. Kind of flattened out, and 2 dimensional in a way, but nonetheless amazing. I got industry cred, engineering and studio accolades, and awards with said producer. But it left me cold. It always amazed me that he actually COULD pull more out of musicians, but he did. Not a way I want to work though. Also worked with a world renowned guitarist with incredible hits that we can all sing in our sleep. He asked me to move parts around in 10's of samples to fit his idea of what the groove should be. I learned a LOT from him, but maybe the main thing was that I like humanity in the music. Don't get me wrong, I strive and strive for my vision, but my vision is not perfection - it's musicality. The two are most decidedly NOT the same for me. I generally like your posts, but this is probably your best ever. I'm totally speculating in my head who the two people you reference are. |
|
|
|
Post by jeremygillespie on Apr 29, 2020 16:14:55 GMT -6
I’ve worked on records when I was an assistant and they just could not play at all. Once they were sent home I’d sit there and replay all the bass and guitar parts to make it manageable and sound like something. I’d get compensated of course, but no credit. (Honestly I wouldn’t want it anyway haha). This would be major label artists btw. No tone, no vibe, just couldn’t play. Pretty amazing that these bands could get a deal but it is what it is.
The flip side would be a record I tracked with Warren Haynes and Railroad Earth. He would play them a song on acoustic in the control room while they wrote charts, not having heard the songs before. He would talk about where he was in life when he wrote the song, elaborate on the story, get everybody in the correct frame of mind etc. they would do 3 takes and if he didn’t feel they got it in those 3 takes the song was dropped from the record. Usually it was the first or second take that was the keeper. Maybe there were 2 songs that got dropped. It was an amazing way to work.
Many times now I’m in a room by myself and the artist. I have to play producer, engineer, drummer, guitarist, bass player, etc. Sometimes it works out great and we bounce ideas off each other seamlessly and great tunes pop out. Other times it’s a struggle.
And the struggle is real haha. Sometimes you’re just not inspired or out of ideas. I’ll usually either call the session for the day or take a break for a few hours and just listen to some of our favorite artists or new music for some inspiration.
Making it all work out is part of the job. Polishing turds isn’t fun either but sometimes it’s what you have to do to pay the bills.
|
|
|
|
Post by wiz on Apr 29, 2020 16:15:28 GMT -6
I don't think I ever get there. I have spent about 12 hours trying to completely re-learn how to play a song I've known forever completely wrong so that I can copy an artist's style and deliver it without squeaks and flubs and poor timing. And it is BRUTAL. And there's no credit for "ghosting". (I do this a lot, anyone else? It pays well, but it's a thankless task) Limitations are meant to be overcome. Yeah, I only kind of believe that too. I doubt BB King spent much time trying to play SRV. I doubt Keith Richards could play Clapton licks. I get what you’re saying, but I also get mrholmes point too. I obsess too much over parts and it paralyzes me. I need to get better at printing and moving on so the creative process isn’t killed. But I also thinks this brings up other issues for modern production. Sometimes I feel like I have to do every freaking thing...from making the coffee to playing every instrument to producing to mixing to mastering to marketing to art to SEO to well, you get the picture. It’s overwhelming. I’ve told this story before, but I remember watching this posthumous David Bowie documentary and it was Carlos Alomar, Robert Fripp, Niles Rogers etc sharing how Bowie would bring in little sketches of his famous songs and then they all said “he would talk about this this and this and I picked up the guitar and played [enter famous lick here].” And it just really hit me - No one (ok maybe Prince) does this all by themselves...surround yourself with talented people and let them help you. I’d love to do that - but I’m not 20 and hanging at bars trading joints for bass parts lol...I also lack an unlimited budget to hire guys...so for me - I start trying to do it all myself. Then things start to sound the same. Then I hate myself and think I suck and get paralyzed...it’s a conundrum. This is my daily experience. kindred spirit |
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Apr 29, 2020 16:43:29 GMT -6
Early on I had the privilege (curse?) of working with an over the top, brutal, perfectionistic, AAA+ level producer who was a great guy, and amazing musician / arranger. He destroyed musicians and vocalists until he got what he wanted. Which was his vision of perfection - plus maybe 10%. End product wise, it's amazing. Kind of flattened out, and 2 dimensional in a way, but nonetheless amazing. I got industry cred, engineering and studio accolades, and awards with said producer. But it left me cold. It always amazed me that he actually COULD pull more out of musicians, but he did. Not a way I want to work though. Also worked with a world renowned guitarist with incredible hits that we can all sing in our sleep. He asked me to move parts around in 10's of samples to fit his idea of what the groove should be. I learned a LOT from him, but maybe the main thing was that I like humanity in the music. Don't get me wrong, I strive and strive for my vision, but my vision is not perfection - it's musicality. The two are most decidedly NOT the same for me. I generally like your posts, but this is probably your best ever. I'm totally speculating in my head who the two people you reference are. Haha! Thanks! My lips are sealed.... It's a small world after all.  |
|
