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Post by kilroyrock on Apr 16, 2020 13:11:25 GMT -6
this is such a topic, and I feel like I've now opened a can of worms for myself to find the perfect monitors (i've been putting this off for 20 years), that at least this first jump should be a big improvement. I just got tired of mixing my song, then putting it on upstairs and hearing something so different. I'd try to find out which OH was left and right and having a hell of a time with it sometimes. I'm expecting this to help.
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Post by guitfiddler on Apr 16, 2020 13:33:17 GMT -6
I used Dynaudio BM5A's for years (originals, not the MKII version). About 2 years ago I dumped $2600 on Focals because I thought I needed to invest in something better. I've since realized that I don't like the Focals. I find them extremely fatiguing, so I switched back to the Dynaudios. I'm doing just fine with those again. You could find a used pair for <1000 easily. I think when I sell my Focals, I'm going to take part of that and invest in a decent sub-woofer, but I also don't feel like it's necessary. I just want one because it'll make listening more enjoyable. That’s surprising because it seems most really like the Focals...some say they are slow in the woofer. Are you referring to the Focal 6bE’s? I have not heard them, so I cannot give an opinion. The day I went to demo them at the store they had an issue with their monitor controller and they would’ve had to go through too much to fix the issue and it would’ve taken too long for them to crawl behind the desk and get a new one. That was one of the monitors I was wanting to demo next to the shapes, twins, and the Eve’s, along with the A7X’s just to hear the differences myself. It was a nice showroom with a few top monitors, It would’ve been nice to hear the comparisons though.
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Post by mamm7215 on Apr 16, 2020 14:48:35 GMT -6
I have original adam a7's, the tweeters aren't exactly the same as the a7x, but close. I find them to very flattering in the high end, not fatiguing at all. But they aren't the most accurate in the high end either. It's been a long time since I tried other monitors in my studio but when I did I was amazed at how important it is to find monitors that sound good in your specific room. I think that makes comparisons really difficult. I had A7's for a few years. I could never, ever get them to translate without a dozen trips to the car and downstairs stereo and Ipod. They just didn't work for me. I have APS Klasik now along with Sonarworks corrected Sony 7506 and Focal Spirit Pro headphones. I've always had a well treated room. When all 3 monitoring devices "agree" on the mix, it pretty much is bang on everywhere else now. Took a long time to learn...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2020 14:49:27 GMT -6
Focal has poor quality control ime. Different units of CMS 50, 65, and Shape 65 sounded different. If you like the demo pair, the pair you might actually buy might sound drastically different. I mean totally different like they used different driver models different. The same with the headphones. Sometimes the bass is tight and warm, sometimes it’s slow and muddy like a French Harbeth. The tweeters have very small motors and can sometimes be clear, zippy, and harsh but sometimes just sound smeared like they are a totally undamped, uneven metal tweeter with a ton of resonances interacting with each other in a way the designer of the driver might have euphonically “tuned.” Their best tweeters were the old, foam-damped inverted Kevlar ones. The earlier, less damped ones are crap. When the foam decays, you get major etch and grit. The foam decaying is one of the reasons why most of the old KRK passives sound so gross now and sell used for practically nothing.
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Post by Tbone81 on Apr 16, 2020 15:07:14 GMT -6
I have original adam a7's, the tweeters aren't exactly the same as the a7x, but close. I find them to very flattering in the high end, not fatiguing at all. But they aren't the most accurate in the high end either. It's been a long time since I tried other monitors in my studio but when I did I was amazed at how important it is to find monitors that sound good in your specific room. I think that makes comparisons really difficult. I had A7's for a few years. I could never, ever get them to translate without a dozen trips to the car and downstairs stereo and Ipod. They just didn't work for me. I have APS Klasik now along with Sonarworks corrected Sony 7506 and Focal Spirit Pro headphones. I've always had a well treated room. When all 3 monitoring devices "agree" on the mix, it pretty much is bang on everywhere else now. Took a long time to learn... Were you using them with a sub? In my room I felt that really helped. Also, I've been using IK ARC correction and it really helps too. In my current room I can get the low end really, really close on the first pass. But there's some upper mid weirdness that I'm working through. Also it took some time for me to learn the high end on the a7's. I've been wanting some new monitors for years now but I see guys still cranking out awesome mixes on ns-10s and then think it's my skills (or lack of) and not the monitors
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Post by nick8801 on Apr 16, 2020 15:54:09 GMT -6
Just to jump back in, when I was on this search a few years ago I went to Alto in Brooklyn to audition some speakers. I listened to the usual suspects....Dynaudio LYD's, Adams, Focals etc...I also had them put up some ATC's and the EVE SC307's. I loved the relaxed crystal clear quality the ATC's had, but they (the 20's) were way out of budget and they had no low end. I ended up with the EVE's. They had ample low end, good clarity, and they were fun to listen to. I did struggle with them a bit in my smaller room, but since downloading Sonarworks I've had a bit of a renaissance with them. My mixes are translating well, and I'm comfortable enough to master a bit as well. I was able to grab them for 1850 for the pair. While I do wonder what other speakers could do for me, I'm very happy with these speakers after 3 years with them.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2020 17:45:16 GMT -6
I used Dynaudio BM5A's for years (originals, not the MKII version). About 2 years ago I dumped $2600 on Focals because I thought I needed to invest in something better. I've since realized that I don't like the Focals. I find them extremely fatiguing, so I switched back to the Dynaudios. I'm doing just fine with those again. You could find a used pair for <1000 easily. I think when I sell my Focals, I'm going to take part of that and invest in a decent sub-woofer, but I also don't feel like it's necessary. I just want one because it'll make listening more enjoyable. That’s surprising because it seems most really like the Focals...some say they are slow in the woofer. Are you referring to the Focal 6bE’s? I have not heard them, so I cannot give an opinion. The day I went to demo them at the store they had an issue with their monitor controller and they would’ve had to go through too much to fix the issue and it would’ve taken too long for them to crawl behind the desk and get a new one. That was one of the monitors I was wanting to demo next to the shapes, twins, and the Eve’s, along with the A7X’s just to hear the differences myself. It was a nice showroom with a few top monitors, It would’ve been nice to hear the comparisons though. Yea, solo 6's. I can tell they are objectively great speakers, and my mixes translated very well... I just don't dig them. They sound quite harsh to me. Others disagree. It's funny how that works. I've read quite a few similar opinions on other forums though. Honestly, I spent literally a year wondering what was wrong with ME. It wasn't until I posted here about it that I realized others experience the exact same thing with all sorts of speakers, and everyone has a different favorite. I think it's not unlike guitar speakers or car stereos I suppose. Your ears just want to hear things a certain way. I'm not sure what "slow in the woofer" means, but I think that it is what happens when I drink too much bourbon.
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Post by guitfiddler on Apr 16, 2020 18:27:37 GMT -6
I’m not sure either about that slow in the woofer means, something like it’s flubby, and not tight, resulting in muddiness and behind in latency with the tweeter, but who knows. I thought maybe you could add to that description. I’m just going by what I read, I read a lot on these monitors, but you can only read into so much, you have to demo them in your environment to know. I have not heard them and I have always wanted to. I figured since Tchad Blake(mastering on them)and Fab DuPont uses them they have to be pretty good monitors. Not that I go by the manufacturer a hype either...but you do see them in a lot of studios and they seem to be a popular monitor. Just never got the chance to actually demo them, the monitor that got away. Even when I set up a demo day I was unable to hear them because of a monitor controller issue. Bourbon is good, good answer. 😆
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Post by ericn on Apr 16, 2020 19:35:00 GMT -6
I’m not sure either about that slow in the woofer means, something like it’s flubby, and not tight, resulting in muddiness and behind in latency with the tweeter, but who knows. I thought maybe you could add to that description. I’m just going by what I read, I read a lot on these monitors, but you can only read into so much, you have to demo them in your environment to know. I have not heard them and I have always wanted to. I figured since Tchad Blake(mastering on them)and Fab DuPont uses them they have to be pretty good monitors. Not that I go by the manufacturer a hype either...but you do see them in a lot of studios and they seem to be a popular monitor. Just never got the chance to actually demo them, the monitor that got away. Even when I set up a demo day I was unable to hear them because of a monitor controller issue. Bourbon is good, good answer. 😆 It’s not really a slow woofer, it’s just slower than the Be tweeter. The 2 just don’t mesh well, they don’t act as seamless system. This is the problem when you have ultra light drivers like BE domes or real ribbons, finding drivers that work well with them. It’s like all the Martin Logan Electrostatic hybrids, you can always hear where the woofer kicks in.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2020 21:19:30 GMT -6
That’s the Adam problem too! I could never make anything sound good on them that didn’t already sound good on them. The woofer is hifi, the tweeter is hifi. Had better success with Sennheiser open headphones and Fostex 6301 than A7X. Now for listening to music, A7X is killer as a hifi. I can’t turd polish on them.
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Post by jampa on Apr 16, 2020 21:49:17 GMT -6
oh, and the Presonus Sceptre is really worth a listen. Really happy with my sceptres 8". Demo them if you can. I have the sub but you don't need it
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 16, 2020 22:01:59 GMT -6
That’s the Adam problem too! I could never make anything sound good on them that didn’t already sound good on them. The woofer is hifi, the tweeter is hifi. Had better success with Sennheiser open headphones and Fostex 6301 than A7X. Now for listening to music, A7X is killer as a hifi. I can’t turd polish on them. I just can’t stand AMT’s ! Then again I’m the guy who had the JBL development guy calling his baby, the dome in the original JBL LSR 3 way “the best HF driver in the word” that I had better at home. It really is hard to beat that Magnepan line source ribbon!
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Post by RealNoob on Apr 16, 2020 23:50:43 GMT -6
oh, and the Presonus Sceptre is really worth a listen. Really happy with my sceptres 8". Demo them if you can. I have the sub but you don't need it I’ve had Scepter 8s and a sub for a few years. I got some GAS and grabbed a pair of PSI A21Ms. The PSIs were lean but precise, like a formula 1 racer. Bloat and poke stood out screaming. They were amaze balls but I had to sell due to personal issues. Back on the Scepters and sub, with SW4, they just work, are easy to listen to, have a huge sweet spot, translate super well and do a lot of that revealing that the PSIs did for me. I will say that having the PSIs for a bit seem to improve my ear when mixing. Strange. I will point out a few things with the scepters though: 1) they are a little thick in the low mids which is a welcome relief to all the scooped speakers - not bad - but do benefit from SW4, smoothing it out. It’s one of those things that I didn’t notice until it was gone. I knew the low mids were present but just tad much I later discovered. 2) they are of the JBL, Dynaudio flavor in being warmer and rounder, not bright and not mid forward. Comparing the Scepters to the PSI, the PSI are formula one and the Scepters are American muscle car though the scepters will do much of what the PSIs will. 3) I run my tops full range and the sub separate with a band pass at 50-60hz. I can’t stand the bloat in bass guitar from every crossovered system I have heard. This not only allows me to turn it off and still have full range but when on, the sub truly sticks to sub frequencies. Honestly, the scepters are an amazing buy. I would not move again unless back to PSI or for something in the $3-4K range to really see a benefit and that says a lot to me considering their cost.
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Post by nick8801 on Apr 17, 2020 1:39:52 GMT -6
Really happy with my sceptres 8". Demo them if you can. I have the sub but you don't need it I’ve had Scepter 8s and a sub for a few years. I got some GAS and grabbed a pair of PSI A21Ms. The PSIs were lean but precise, like a formula 1 racer. Bloat and poke stood out screaming. They were amaze balls but I had to sell due to personal issues. Back on the Scepters and sub, with SW4, they just work, are easy to listen to, have a huge sweet spot, translate super well and do a lot of that revealing that the PSIs did for me. I will say that having the PSIs for a bit seem to improve my ear when mixing. Strange. I will point out a few things with the scepters though: 1) they are a little thick in the low mids which is a welcome relief to all the scooped speakers - not bad - but do benefit from SW4, smoothing it out. It’s one of those things that I didn’t notice until it was gone. I knew the low mids were present but just tad much I later discovered. 2) they are of the JBL, Dynaudio flavor in being warmer and rounder, not bright and not mid forward. Comparing the Scepters to the PSI, the PSI are formula one and the Scepters are American muscle car though the scepters will do much of what the PSIs will. 3) I run my tops full range and the sub separate with a band pass at 50-60hz. I can’t stand the bloat in bass guitar from every crossovered system I have heard. This not only allows me to turn it off and still have full range but when on, the sub truly sticks to sub frequencies. Honestly, the scepters are an amazing buy. I would not move again unless back to PSI or for something in the $3-4K range to really see a benefit and that says a lot to me considering their cost. I had the S6 before I had my EVE’s. I agree. Really great speakers.
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Post by guitfiddler on Apr 17, 2020 3:29:02 GMT -6
I’ve had Scepter 8s and a sub for a few years. I got some GAS and grabbed a pair of PSI A21Ms. The PSIs were lean but precise, like a formula 1 racer. Bloat and poke stood out screaming. They were amaze balls but I had to sell due to personal issues. Back on the Scepters and sub, with SW4, they just work, are easy to listen to, have a huge sweet spot, translate super well and do a lot of that revealing that the PSIs did for me. I will say that having the PSIs for a bit seem to improve my ear when mixing. Strange. I will point out a few things with the scepters though: 1) they are a little thick in the low mids which is a welcome relief to all the scooped speakers - not bad - but do benefit from SW4, smoothing it out. It’s one of those things that I didn’t notice until it was gone. I knew the low mids were present but just tad much I later discovered. 2) they are of the JBL, Dynaudio flavor in being warmer and rounder, not bright and not mid forward. Comparing the Scepters to the PSI, the PSI are formula one and the Scepters are American muscle car though the scepters will do much of what the PSIs will. 3) I run my tops full range and the sub separate with a band pass at 50-60hz. I can’t stand the bloat in bass guitar from every crossovered system I have heard. This not only allows me to turn it off and still have full range but when on, the sub truly sticks to sub frequencies. Honestly, the scepters are an amazing buy. I would not move again unless back to PSI or for something in the $3-4K range to really see a benefit and that says a lot to me considering their cost. I had the S6 before I had my EVE’s. I agree. Really great speakers. What made you move to the Eve’s? 307’s correct? Pushing the envelope further? That review of the Scepter 8’s sounds like it would be a cool monitor to try out for the money. I am interested in a muscular monitor that I can track drums and bass with. Sounds as if this might be the one in the right price bracket, maybe...Then there is this Eve thing drawing me nearer...I have tried several monitors and I can always find something I don't like about them. I loved the BF MM27's, but it was a no go in my room.
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Post by delcampo on Apr 17, 2020 8:37:27 GMT -6
In that price range I'd suggest the Pelonis 4288's should be considered. I have the ver.1 of these and find them very good. The link below have some ver.2 upgrades and are seemingly a good deal. I have nothing to do with the reverb listing here but again, they're solid. reverb.com/item/1651846-pelonis-4288-monitors
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Post by nick8801 on Apr 17, 2020 8:47:41 GMT -6
I had the S6 before I had my EVE’s. I agree. Really great speakers. What made you move to the Eve’s? 307’s correct? Pushing the envelope further? That review of the Scepter 8’s sounds like it would be a cool monitor to try out for the money. I am interested in a muscular monitor that I can track drums and bass with. Sounds as if this might be the one in the right price bracket, maybe...Then there is this Eve thing drawing me nearer...I have tried several monitors and I can always find something I don't like about them. I loved the BF MM27's, but it was a no go in my room. Quality control basically. One of the drivers in the scepter came loose and was rattling. Presonus took about 5 or 6 back and forth emails over the stretch of a week and a half to try to explain to me how to fix it. After opening it up, seeing how difficult it would be without proper tools, and another week of emails, I was finally able to send it out for repair. They were also quite noisy even with their amps turned down. I could audibly hear their hissing when I walked in my room. All that being said, they did guide me to good mixes, and the coax design really made it easy to hear small changes, but in the end they just felt a little cheap to me. The Eve’s are just big and fun. Really quiet, and they pump out bass when you want it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2020 8:51:19 GMT -6
I’m not sure either about that slow in the woofer means, something like it’s flubby, and not tight, resulting in muddiness and behind in latency with the tweeter, but who knows. I thought maybe you could add to that description. I’m just going by what I read, I read a lot on these monitors, but you can only read into so much, you have to demo them in your environment to know. I have not heard them and I have always wanted to. I figured since Tchad Blake(mastering on them)and Fab DuPont uses them they have to be pretty good monitors. Not that I go by the manufacturer a hype either...but you do see them in a lot of studios and they seem to be a popular monitor. Just never got the chance to actually demo them, the monitor that got away. Even when I set up a demo day I was unable to hear them because of a monitor controller issue. Bourbon is good, good answer. 😆 Yea, I mean like I said, I believe that they are good speakers. I bought them because of the rave reviews everywhere, and because I saw them on lots of studios have them. You should try them. You might love them. I don't think everyone is in on some conspiracy to sell shitty monitors. The issue I had, and this my experience, was with the tweeters. It felt like treble was just slicing through my ear drums all the time. I could never listen at more than like 50-70db, which is quiet, and only for short periods before my ears were hurting. Whenever bands were in the room and they asked me to "turn it up" I would think "ugh". I tried different positions, distances, orientations... anything I could. Same result every time.
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Post by mulmany on Apr 17, 2020 10:02:45 GMT -6
Did you receive the Shape 65's yet?
I have been very happy with my Twin Shapes. Seem to translate very well from my room.
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Post by ericn on Apr 17, 2020 10:25:41 GMT -6
If your a fan of time aligned dual concentric speakers there is a pair of Bag End / Radian MM-8’s on EBay for $499 plus $125 shipping. In the Audiophile world there are guys selling basically the same thing (same driver slightly tweeked x-over different box configuration) for $10K! I have built a number of these over the years, I have a client with seven in a home theater who just told me he wants to upgrade the diaphragms to Be. The Bagends a JW Modded GFA 535 and an infra / ELF sub is a fun combo! 2 subs and it sounds like an old school mains with more clarity!
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Post by kilroyrock on Apr 17, 2020 10:41:51 GMT -6
Did you receive the Shape 65's yet? I have been very happy with my Twin Shapes. Seem to translate very well from my room. Not yet, I figure shipping is pretty slow right now for most things.
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Post by mamm7215 on Apr 17, 2020 10:46:07 GMT -6
I had A7's for a few years. I could never, ever get them to translate without a dozen trips to the car and downstairs stereo and Ipod. They just didn't work for me. I have APS Klasik now along with Sonarworks corrected Sony 7506 and Focal Spirit Pro headphones. I've always had a well treated room. When all 3 monitoring devices "agree" on the mix, it pretty much is bang on everywhere else now. Took a long time to learn... Were you using them with a sub? In my room I felt that really helped. Also, I've been using IK ARC correction and it really helps too. In my current room I can get the low end really, really close on the first pass. But there's some upper mid weirdness that I'm working through. Also it took some time for me to learn the high end on the a7's. I've been wanting some new monitors for years now but I see guys still cranking out awesome mixes on ns-10s and then think it's my skills (or lack of) and not the monitors I had a sub with the previous to A7 monitors but not with the A7's. I didn't have ARC or any correction back then, that may have helped. Reference tracks sounded fine at first I thought but I think it was because I already knew them but when I A-B'd them next to my Klasiks suddenly I could hear the bass and reference tracks sounded fuller and more balanced. Stereo image was a lot more defined and front to back depth became something I could actually hear defined as opposed to just reading about it and wondering what it meant. Could never experience it on my A7's. They were highly hyped back in the day so I drank the koolaid and got some but I always struggled with them.
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Post by guitfiddler on Apr 17, 2020 11:12:43 GMT -6
What made you move to the Eve’s? 307’s correct? Pushing the envelope further? That review of the Scepter 8’s sounds like it would be a cool monitor to try out for the money. I am interested in a muscular monitor that I can track drums and bass with. Sounds as if this might be the one in the right price bracket, maybe...Then there is this Eve thing drawing me nearer...I have tried several monitors and I can always find something I don't like about them. I loved the BF MM27's, but it was a no go in my room. Quality control basically. One of the drivers in the scepter came loose and was rattling. Presonus took about 5 or 6 back and forth emails over the stretch of a week and a half to try to explain to me how to fix it. After opening it up, seeing how difficult it would be without proper tools, and another week of emails, I was finally able to send it out for repair. They were also quite noisy even with their amps turned down. I could audibly hear their hissing when I walked in my room. All that being said, they did guide me to good mixes, and the coax design really made it easy to hear small changes, but in the end they just felt a little cheap to me. The Eve’s are just big and fun. Really quiet, and they pump out bass when you want it. . That sucks about the S8’s. I did see a review where a guy said he could hear hiss as well. Not a lot of reviews said this. So, I’m wondering if they just didn’t care about the hiss, or if that is in some of the monitors? Hmmm...I use Genelecs older 10 series monitors. I really haven’t moved from those. I’ll leave and come right back to them probably because I’ve been using them since 94, they translate good for me, and sound balanced in my room. Every other monitor has had a strong frequency here or there meaning it sounds right and balanced in a group of the frequencies hi/mids/lows, and weak in the other, if I were to break it up into 3 groups. I thought about going to the next tier to the mid level to mid high end. HEDD/EVE’s/ROCK’s III, but I’m going to have to demo more. I want power to be able to track drums and bass at a decent level when tracking. Not stupid levels, but fun levels.
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Post by svart on Apr 17, 2020 13:08:09 GMT -6
I'm going to sound like a shill, but those Buchardts are outstanding.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2020 14:32:17 GMT -6
If your a fan of time aligned dual concentric speakers there is a pair of Bag End / Radian MM-8’s on EBay for $499 plus $125 shipping. In the Audiophile world there are guys selling basically the same thing (same driver slightly tweeked x-over different box configuration) for $10K! I have built a number of these over the years, I have a client with seven in a home theater who just told me he wants to upgrade the diaphragms to Be. The Bagends a JW Modded GFA 535 and an infra / ELF sub is a fun combo! 2 subs and it sounds like an old school mains with more clarity! How are the M-6 and PM-6 that are still being made? I came across them a while ago but unfortunately after I bought the KRKs. I needed an upgrade right before this Coronavirus mess.
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