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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 7:58:51 GMT -6
Maybe I'm reading too much into this. I'm no engineer but home recording musician who is passionate about getting the best sound at tracking.
so pease someone please clarify this to me. I heard from this big studio owner and also readings some gearslutz posts that having 1073 preamp only compromises part of the sound since the sound travels through all the eq cicuitry/amps being full architecture
Only by having eq inline in the unit (even not engaged) contributes to the original sound of 1073. For example ams1073lb has a link function with their 500 eq and so does sound skulptor
By having a dual 1073bpreamp like stam or heritage clone, Since it lacks the eq circuit, am I getting an inferior sound or is this some horse š“ crap?
Please guide me on right direction so I don't waste money. Maybe stam can also chime in
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Post by matt@IAA on Aug 21, 2019 9:08:37 GMT -6
When you have the EQ not engaged in an original 1073 module it does not go through the EQ section at all. Thatās very different than going through a 1073 EQ set flat, which does definitely have a slight frequency response change.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 9:14:21 GMT -6
When you have the EQ not engaged in an original 1073 module it does not go through the EQ section at all. Thatās very different than going through a 1073 EQ set flat, which does definitely have a slight frequency response change. got it. i read that even when EQ not engaged it does something to sound. maybe these people splitting hair, who knows. i think ill stick with standalone Pres for now since i dont have a need for EQ unless its something drastic which i doubt. how about you? do you track with EQ set flat? or with bypassed?
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Post by svart on Aug 21, 2019 9:37:19 GMT -6
When you have the EQ not engaged in an original 1073 module it does not go through the EQ section at all. Thatās very different than going through a 1073 EQ set flat, which does definitely have a slight frequency response change. got it. i read that even when EQ not engaged it does something to sound. maybe these people splitting hair, who knows. i think ill stick with standalone Pres for now since i dont have a need for EQ unless its something drastic which i doubt. how about you? do you track with EQ set flat? or with bypassed? As far as I can tell by the schematic, not all the sections of the EQ are completely bypassed, but I think we're splitting hairs here. The majority of the vintage neve sound is the class-A driver interacting with the output transformer. Back when these modules were made, they used 20-60% tolerance parts, which means that no two modules sounded identical to each other. Various clones are made today with much higher tolerance parts and likely sound more like the original modules did when they were brand new and before their tolerances drifted over decades of use. You're going to hear this a lot in your time here, but do whatever works for you. Try it both ways. Be objective. I bet you'll probably struggle to hear any difference at all, which is usually the case when we get a lot of these "I heard it from" stories. Usually they are hyped a lot more than reality and sometimes when someone hears something they think is significant they have trouble "un-hearing" it and they'll tell everyone about it even though nobody else really hears the thing they think is so important.
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Post by Chad on Aug 21, 2019 10:02:31 GMT -6
I have the Heritage Audio DMA73 preamp, and if I run out of that pre and into my Heritage Audio '73EQjr with all 3 bands turned "off", I don't hear a bit of difference. As soon as I turn each of the three bands "on" (by moving them from "off" to any selected frequency of my choice), I begin to hear resonance within the range of that band. And this is without even doing a bit of boost.
The Heritage Audio is merely a clone of the circuit, but that's my experience with what you're discussing.
Chad
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Post by drbill on Aug 21, 2019 10:05:45 GMT -6
Colin @ AML told me that the EQ loads the circuit in a 1073, and that a 1073 without the EQ is not a true 1073 sound. Take it for what it's worth.....
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Post by matt@IAA on Aug 21, 2019 10:45:03 GMT -6
Ok, so you can check the original schematic here: www.technicalaudio.com/neve/neve_pdf/1073-fullpak.pdfIf you look at page 2 you can see the output of the BA283 on pin P go down and feed the BA205 pin F with R39 to B-, as well as the EQ switch via C11, with R58 and R72 to B- (signal ground). This is identical to how the AML module handles it, which you can see here on p43: medias.audiofanzine.com/files/neve-ez1073-colourbook-472402.pdfThe output of the gain stage 2 boost goes to the EQ via EQ send with R57 to audio ground, and feeds the EQ bypass switch via C100 with R132 to audio ground. Anyway when either switch is turned OFF the EQ section output is open circuit, and the direct output of the preamp / line amp stage goes directly to the output line amp stage. The EQ section has a level loss through it, so the bypass switch also has a 2k7 resistor in series to drop the level to match when bypassing the EQ. A 1073 without the EQ is definitely not a true 1073, because a 1073 is both the mic and EQ. The fact that the EQ stage is being fed in parallel with the output amp may in fact change the tone of the preamp... I don't know for sure, but my inclination is to say that it probably doesn't change the tone significantly. Glad to be shown otherwise though.
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Post by christopher on Aug 21, 2019 10:50:12 GMT -6
I canāt say for certain what the difference is but I can say the EQ-flat isnāt going to magically make everything sound finished, unless weāre talking actual vintage where it sounds incredible and maybe the pre needed the whole circuit for proper tone. The majority of the clones donāt really sound like vintage, and are designed to be stand alone. The EQ when being used does have a signature to it though. I tried a mix using only the EQ, lots of boosting and nothing else and it gave me a classic 80s/early 90s record sound. The next day I was driving and a Prince song came on and I was like āoh shit that sounds exactly like 1073 EQā. Not sure if it was Neve, but the purple rain album is pretty much the sound youāll get.
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Post by christopher on Aug 21, 2019 10:57:52 GMT -6
I have the Heritage Audio DMA73 preamp, and if I run out of that pre and into my Heritage Audio '73EQjr with all 3 bands turned "off", I don't hear a bit of difference. As soon as I turn each of the three bands "on" (by moving them from "off" to any selected frequency of my choice), I begin to hear resonance within the range of that band. And this is without even doing a bit of boost. The Heritage Audio is merely a clone of the circuit, but that's my experience with what you're discussing. Chad This is good info.. I have the 73EQjr, Iāll do some tests. Thanks for this thread!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 12:28:56 GMT -6
I have the Heritage Audio DMA73 preamp, and if I run out of that pre and into my Heritage Audio '73EQjr with all 3 bands turned "off", I don't hear a bit of difference. As soon as I turn each of the three bands "on" (by moving them from "off" to any selected frequency of my choice), I begin to hear resonance within the range of that band. And this is without even doing a bit of boost. The Heritage Audio is merely a clone of the circuit, but that's my experience with what you're discussing. Chad That's not what I intended to ask. You are using two separate modules. What I was curious was about the eq inline being part of the preamp circuitry but being on bypass mode, kinda like the original topology.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 12:32:18 GMT -6
got it. i read that even when EQ not engaged it does something to sound. maybe these people splitting hair, who knows. i think ill stick with standalone Pres for now since i dont have a need for EQ unless its something drastic which i doubt. how about you? do you track with EQ set flat? or with bypassed? As far as I can tell by the schematic, not all the sections of the EQ are completely bypassed, but I think we're splitting hairs here.Ā The majority of the vintage neve sound is the class-A driver interacting with the output transformer.Ā Back when these modules were made, they used 20-60% tolerance parts, which means that no two modules sounded identical to each other.Ā Ā Various clones are made today with much higher tolerance parts and likely sound more like the original modules did when they were brand new and before their tolerances drifted over decades of use.Ā You're going to hear this a lot in your time here, but do whatever works for you.Ā Try it both ways.Ā Be objective.Ā I bet you'll probably struggle to hear any difference at all, which is usually the case when we get a lot of these "I heard it from" stories.Ā Usually they are hyped a lot more than reality and sometimes when someone hears something they think is significant they have trouble "un-hearing" it and they'll tell everyone about it even though nobody else really hears the thing they think is so important.Ā Great info, exactly the type of answers I was looking for I will have to check this out myself..i have stam 73mpa ordered, would like to compare to 1073eq myself. Again guys,.im talking about eq being in bypass mode, not engaged, regardless.of if it's set to flat
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 12:34:09 GMT -6
Colin @ AML told me that the EQ loads the circuit in a 1073, and that a 1073 without the EQ is not a true 1073 sound. Take it for what it's worth..... See what I mean lol š that's what I'm saying, is there a difference? I guess I have to find out on my own unless someone has both.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 12:36:50 GMT -6
Ok, so you can check the original schematic here: www.technicalaudio.com/neve/neve_pdf/1073-fullpak.pdfIf you look at page 2 you can see the output of the BA283 on pin P go down and feed the BA205 pin F with R39 to B-, as well as the EQ switch via C11, with R58 and R72 to B- (signal ground). This is identical to how the AML module handles it, which you can see here on p43: medias.audiofanzine.com/files/neve-ez1073-colourbook-472402.pdfThe output of the gain stage 2 boost goes to the EQ via EQ send with R57 to audio ground, and feeds the EQ bypass switch via C100 with R132 to audio ground. Anyway when either switch is turned OFF the EQ section output is open circuit, and the direct output of the preamp / line amp stage goes directly to the output line amp stage. The EQ section has a level loss through it, so the bypass switch also has a 2k7 resistor in series to drop the level to match when bypassing the EQ. A 1073 without the EQ is definitely not a true 1073, because a 1073 is both the mic and EQ. The fact that the EQ stage is being fed in parallel with the output amp may in fact change the tone of the preamp... I don't know for sure, but my inclination is to say that it probably doesn't change the tone significantly. Glad to be shown otherwise though. Great info, now I'm even more curious.. I will eventually buy both to see if a difference exist if yes then how much
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 12:39:13 GMT -6
I canāt say for certain what the difference is but I can say the EQ-flat isnāt going to magically make everything sound finished, unless weāre talking actual vintage where it sounds incredible and maybe the pre needed the whole circuit for proper tone. The majority of the clones donāt really sound like vintage, and are designed to be stand alone. The EQ when being used does have a signature to it though. I tried a mix using only the EQ, lots of boosting and nothing else and it gave me a classic 80s/early 90s record sound. The next day I was driving and a Prince song came on and I was like āoh shit that sounds exactly like 1073 EQā. Not sure if it was Neve, but the purple rain album is pretty much the sound youāll get. I'm only talking about with eq bypassed if it's any different then standalone preamp sound. They way ur saying is different..im sure I can use any different brand of eq and have it on and I'm sure it may change the sound
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Post by drbill on Aug 21, 2019 14:23:34 GMT -6
Ok, so you can check the original schematic here: www.technicalaudio.com/neve/neve_pdf/1073-fullpak.pdfIf you look at page 2 you can see the output of the BA283 on pin P go down and feed the BA205 pin F with R39 to B-, as well as the EQ switch via C11, with R58 and R72 to B- (signal ground). This is identical to how the AML module handles it, which you can see here on p43: medias.audiofanzine.com/files/neve-ez1073-colourbook-472402.pdfThe output of the gain stage 2 boost goes to the EQ via EQ send with R57 to audio ground, and feeds the EQ bypass switch via C100 with R132 to audio ground. Anyway when either switch is turned OFF the EQ section output is open circuit, and the direct output of the preamp / line amp stage goes directly to the output line amp stage. The EQ section has a level loss through it, so the bypass switch also has a 2k7 resistor in series to drop the level to match when bypassing the EQ. A 1073 without the EQ is definitely not a true 1073, because a 1073 is both the mic and EQ. The fact that the EQ stage is being fed in parallel with the output amp may in fact change the tone of the preamp... I don't know for sure, but my inclination is to say that it probably doesn't change the tone significantly. Glad to be shown otherwise though. In the words of our infamous leader...... "I was told there would be no math...."
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Post by shoe on Aug 21, 2019 16:20:11 GMT -6
As far as I can tell by the schematic, not all the sections of the EQ are completely bypassed, but I think we're splitting hairs here.Ā The majority of the vintage neve sound is the class-A driver interacting with the output transformer.Ā Back when these modules were made, they used 20-60% tolerance parts, which means that no two modules sounded identical to each other.Ā Ā Various clones are made today with much higher tolerance parts and likely sound more like the original modules did when they were brand new and before their tolerances drifted over decades of use.Ā You're going to hear this a lot in your time here, but do whatever works for you.Ā Try it both ways.Ā Be objective.Ā I bet you'll probably struggle to hear any difference at all, which is usually the case when we get a lot of these "I heard it from" stories.Ā Usually they are hyped a lot more than reality and sometimes when someone hears something they think is significant they have trouble "un-hearing" it and they'll tell everyone about it even though nobody else really hears the thing they think is so important.Ā Great info, exactly the type of answers I was looking for I will have to check this out myself..i have stam 73mpa ordered, would like to compare to 1073eq myself. Again guys,.im talking about eq being in bypass mode, not engaged, regardless.of if it's set to flat I have both of those units and they do sound different. However, the EQ is not the only difference between them. The transistor types are also different between the units and my MPA is overall a little bit lower output than the 1073EQ. The MPA also is cleaner sounding, to my ear (perhaps due to lower output or bias adjustment?). They both sound quite nice, though. I should do some comparison clips. Sorry this doesn't actually answer the question, though. If they were otherwise identical besides the EQ would they sound the same? I dunno.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 16:38:12 GMT -6
Great info, exactly the type of answers I was looking for I will have to check this out myself..i have stam 73mpa ordered, would like to compare to 1073eq myself. Again guys,.im talking about eq being in bypass mode, not engaged, regardless.of if it's set to flat I have both of those units and they do sound different. However, the EQ is not the only difference between them. The transistor types are also different between the units and my MPA is overall a little bit lower output than the 1073EQ. The MPA also is cleaner sounding, to my ear (perhaps due to lower output or bias adjustment?). They both sound quite nice, though. I should do some comparison clips. Sorry this doesn't actually answer the question, though. If they were otherwise identical besides the EQ would they sound the same? I dunno. actually it do answer the question if there is obviously a difference in sound even when eq is not engaged. If the difference is subtle/neglible or noticible is what I want to find out. That way I know if I want to buy the eq version besides the dual pres. Test samples would be awesome, electric guitars, acoustic, vocals, would love to hear, please do that
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Post by shoe on Aug 21, 2019 20:30:35 GMT -6
I have both of those units and they do sound different. However, the EQ is not the only difference between them. The transistor types are also different between the units and my MPA is overall a little bit lower output than the 1073EQ. The MPA also is cleaner sounding, to my ear (perhaps due to lower output or bias adjustment?). They both sound quite nice, though. I should do some comparison clips. Sorry this doesn't actually answer the question, though. If they were otherwise identical besides the EQ would they sound the same? I dunno. actually it do answer the question if there is obviously a difference in sound even when eq is not engaged. If the difference is subtle or neglible is what I want to find out. That way I know if I want to buy the eq version besides the dual pres. Test samples would be awesome, electric guitars, acoustic, vocals, would love to hear, please do that Ah ok. If you mean specifically the Stam ones, yes. They do sound a bit different. But if you meant like BAE or Warm or something...I can't answer that, myself. Although I am interested in getting the Warm 2 channel with LPF only one to modify it, actually.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2019 20:47:44 GMT -6
actually it do answer the question if there is obviously a difference in sound even when eq is not engaged. If the difference is subtle or neglible is what I want to find out. That way I know if I want to buy the eq version besides the dual pres. Test samples would be awesome, electric guitars, acoustic, vocals, would love to hear, please do that Ah ok. If you mean specifically the Stam ones, yes. They do sound a bit different. But if you meant like BAE or Warm or something...I can't answer that, myself. Although I am interested in getting the Warm 2 channel with LPF only one to modify it, actually. man stam would be perfect for the A/B! you have the sowter? so you got both the 'dual pre and one with eq'? i wont hesitate to pull the trigger on a eq one if necessary.
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Post by matt@IAA on Aug 22, 2019 2:07:42 GMT -6
The old Stam 1073 MPA have a different gain structure than the new 1073 with EQ. Different number of three transistor gain blocks. Not quite apples to apples.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2019 7:11:56 GMT -6
The old Stam 1073 MPA have a different gain structure than the new 1073 with EQ. Different number of three transistor gain blocks. Not quite apples to apples. wait There is more than 1 version of the mpa?
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Post by matt@IAA on Aug 22, 2019 10:55:54 GMT -6
Iām not certain, and I donāt want to speak for Stam, but I believe the original one was a two stage gain structure and the newer one is three. Someone else would have to confirm.
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Post by Calvin on Aug 22, 2019 12:39:58 GMT -6
Colin @ AML told me that the EQ loads the circuit in a 1073, and that a 1073 without the EQ is not a true 1073 sound. Take it for what it's worth..... See what I mean lol š that's what I'm saying, is there a difference? I guess I have to find out on my own unless someone has both. Is it going to be different without the EQ loading the preamp? Sure. Will you notice? Maybe. The preamp is going to sound great, regardless. And, unless you've got legit vintage units, you're not likely to get all the way to a "true" 1073 sound anyway, even with the eq, due to the difference in transformers. And, even if you do have vintage units, it won't sound the same as running through an entire vintage Neve console. It's all going to sound terrific, though, so you can feel confident no matter how deep you get into the 1073 chase.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2019 13:15:31 GMT -6
See what I mean lol š that's what I'm saying, is there a difference? I guess I have to find out on my own unless someone has both. Is it going to be different without the EQ loading the preamp? Sure. Will you notice? Maybe. The preamp is going to sound great, regardless. And, unless you've got legit vintage units, you're not likely to get all the way to a "true" 1073 sound anyway, even with the eq, due to the difference in transformers. And, even if you do have vintage units, it won't sound the same as running through an entire vintage Neve console. It's all going to sound terrific, though, so you can feel confident no matter how deep you get into the 1073 chase. I completely agree. Honestly I don't even want to a chase a sound cause it all subjective. But I was curious due to claims by few that it's not the same without the eq built into unit. At the end I would let my ears decide. To the gentleman that kindly offer to record samples with stam, that can put the controversy to rest, atleast for me. I haven't heard a clone yet that matched the original/vintage but I also heard they all sound different from each other. I also do understand that gears don't make hit records, again it's something more like curiosity to hear for myself whether i think its something worth getting the full topology.
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Post by matt@IAA on Aug 22, 2019 13:19:20 GMT -6
See what I mean lol š that's what I'm saying, is there a difference? I guess I have to find out on my own unless someone has both. Is it going to be different without the EQ loading the preamp? Sure. Will you notice? Maybe. The preamp is going to sound great, regardless. And, unless you've got legit vintage units, you're not likely to get all the way to a "true" 1073 sound anyway, even with the eq, due to the difference in transformers. And, even if you do have vintage units, it won't sound the same as running through an entire vintage Neve console. It's all going to sound terrific, though, so you can feel confident no matter how deep you get into the 1073 chase. What do you mean the EQ loading the preamp? I linked the schematics. The EQ is a parallel load to the output amp when the EQ isnāt engaged, and series when it is. But unless someone goes through the trouble of figuring / modeling the input impedance of the EQ, itās kind of meaningless to say itāll load it, especially if its >>10k across the audio band.
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