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Post by stratboy on May 1, 2019 16:51:21 GMT -6
I’ve searched RGO for a thread on this topic, but I can’t find anything. Surely we’ve discussed it before? If you remember a similar thread, please post the link. I may have to downsize a bit next year, so I’m considering which boxes I could sell in favor of ITB alternatives. One idea is to use a couple of underutilized UAD Satellite Duos to run verbs and delays instead of the hardware I use now (AKG BX-5, Yamaha Rev-500, Alesis Quadraverb and Deltalabs Effectron Jr). I have both UAD EMTs, the Echoplex and Cooper Timecube. I could buy more. I’m more interested in the group’s opinions on hardware vs software than in comments on my specific tools, although those are welcome, too, but if you could only have one or the other, which would you choose and why?
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Post by Blackdawg on May 1, 2019 16:57:34 GMT -6
Hardware all day for me mostly because software seems to go in and out of date all the time..
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 1, 2019 17:02:13 GMT -6
My Relab XL480 sounds close, so I would expect the UAD XL 480 is even closer. I still like the $79 Liquid Sonic 7th Heaven better than all the others.
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Post by veggieryan on May 1, 2019 17:42:28 GMT -6
No plugin or even rack mount digital unit comes anywhere close to a real mechanical reverb when it comes to springs and plates. Even a homemade spring or plate reverb will destroy any plugin/rack unit. Even with a supercomputer more powerful than any computer around today it is simply not possible to model the infinite complexity of a real mechanical reverb. The gap between real analog hardware and cheap emulations is never more apparent than this case.
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Post by Tbone81 on May 1, 2019 17:43:36 GMT -6
It would have to be something really special for me to choose hardware over plugins. Between my uad 140, seventh heaven, and SP2016 I feel like all the bases are covered. The sound of plugins I think is amazing and the abilities to use several instances of each in a single session, with instant recall is incredibly important.
The one exception, for me, is that I do plan on getting a fancy guitar pedal verb that can double as a hardware insert. I’m thinking a Strymon Big Blue/Blue Sky. But that’s because it’ll serve double duty.
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Post by notneeson on May 1, 2019 19:11:48 GMT -6
It would have to be something really special for me to choose hardware over plugins. Between my uad 140, seventh heaven, and SP2016 I feel like all the bases are covered. The sound of plugins I think is amazing and the abilities to use several instances of each in a single session, with instant recall is incredibly important. The one exception, for me, is that I do plan on getting a fancy guitar pedal verb that can double as a hardware insert. I’m thinking a Strymon Big Blue/Blue Sky. But that’s because it’ll serve double duty. Ha, I feel the same way. I do have some time on the Bricasti but not enough to feel like I can be definitive, except to say I need mics more than I need a fancy reverb. But, I did own a Big Sky for a minute, which I gladly sold back to the friend I bought it from. It didn't cut it on drums or vocals at all. Now, that might be because it's voiced for guitar. But VVV and my plate IRs aren't voiced for guitar, but they sound great on it, and anything else.
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 1, 2019 19:59:27 GMT -6
My Relab XL480 sounds close, so I would expect the UAD XL 480 is even closer. I still like the $79 Liquid Sonic 7th Heaven better than all the others.
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Post by rowmat on May 1, 2019 20:24:21 GMT -6
Since installing our EMT140 about a year ago it gets used on just about everything. It has kind of an organic depth that plugins don't quite nail. Even without pre-delay vocals still remain in front of the verb much more than plugins seem to. The 480L doesn't get as much use as it used to especially on vocal plate duties but still fills a role mostly for wood room and ambience. Never quite managed to warm to the Bricasti. It sounds a bit kind of too perfect and polished to me which I find almost distracting for some reason.
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Post by guitfiddler on May 1, 2019 20:44:44 GMT -6
Hardware all day and night long! I do love me some Waves H-verb though! I love my Bricasti! There really isn’t anything like it especially on an intimate singer/songwriter acoustic mix! And anything Exponential, sorry Izotope, but to me it will always be Exponential!
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2019 2:07:53 GMT -6
Sold my PCM70 when Valhalla Room came out, never looked back, was the last hardware reverb I owned (unless you count the Eventide H9 Max). It's all just digital code anyway.
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Post by askomiko on May 2, 2019 3:20:11 GMT -6
As for affordable real springs go, has anyone used the Vermona VSR? I've kind of wanted one (or two) for a while.
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Post by bluegrassdan on May 2, 2019 5:24:37 GMT -6
Waves Abbey Road Plate Waves Abbey Road Chambers Altiverb
Make a record.
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 2, 2019 5:26:38 GMT -6
Back when reverbs first went digital I had the Lexicon PCM 60, the PCM-42 and the Yamaha reverb, plus that Tascam spring reverb, I forget the model, but it’s the more desirable one. After getting the Lex, I never used the spring reverb and sold it. I even bought the UAD spring reverb for fun, and never use it either.
I’ve had hardware reverbs in the back of my mind and would love to hear some comparisons. Tha Eventide H9 sure sounds good to me.
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Post by indiehouse on May 2, 2019 5:42:54 GMT -6
I want this.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on May 2, 2019 6:33:05 GMT -6
I have yet to hear a hardware manufacturer claim it sounds just like a certain plugin, the opposite seams to be the selling point of every other reverb plugin. That said for the money if you steer away from those trying to be hardware for the money you can’t beat the innovation and quality of guys like Exponential Audio. At the top Bricasti is the gold standard, but I just don’t see anyone chasing them, Lexicon is to busy selling home theater, TC’s new masters realize it’s cheaper and you can sell more plugins, Eventide is still building new highend boxes but reverb is not their primary thing.
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Post by EmRR on May 2, 2019 8:17:48 GMT -6
I never had any top shelf reverb hardware outside of my Ecoplate I, Ecoplate III, and RE-201 Space Echo. The digital hardware boxes all went away after I moved to DAW world. I liked driving the H3000, Lexicon 200, and Dynacord DRP 15 I used at another place years ago.
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Post by svart on May 2, 2019 8:32:01 GMT -6
You know, I'm a diehard hardware guy, but I've been finding that stacking a couple plug-in reverbs in a bus has been almost as good as hardware for me. I generally run Valhalla room of some sort stacked with IRs from a Bricasti.
Then again, when I mix, I tend to mix the 'verb in thick and then thin out areas with EQ so that I get that nice and lush enveloping verb but it doesn't overtake the mix. I think a lot of folks tend to "go light" on the verb because it gets too cloudy and forget they can also EQ it to fit just like any other track.
I'm also finding that it doesn't seem to matter what brand/model verb I use as long as the attributes fit the mix.
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 2, 2019 8:55:15 GMT -6
I have a bunch of reverbs, the main ones being theRelab XL480, UAD EMT-140, Sound Toys Little Plate, Ocean Way, Oxide and some others in a Waves bundle, plus the very nice Logic reverb.
But since I got the Liquid Sonics 7th Heaven, I barely use the others. I prefer clean over deep and dark, and contrary to most mixer’s advice, found using mainly one reverb gets me better results, or using mostly one verb on all tracks and a very small amount of the Relab here and there to widen it a little.
*Svart, when you say “thin out”, do you mean you automate the EQ on a reverb to change at different places on a track?
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Post by svart on May 2, 2019 9:09:01 GMT -6
I have a bunch of reverbs, the main ones being theRelab XL480, UAD EMT-140, Sound Toys Little Plate, Ocean Way, Oxide and some others in a Waves bundle, plus the very nice Logic reverb. But since I got the Liquid Sonics 7th Heaven, I barely use the others. I prefer clean over deep and dark, and contrary to most mixer’s advice, found using mainly one reverb gets me better results, or using mostly one verb on all tracks and a very small amount of the Relab here and there to widen it a little. *Svart, when you say “thin out”, do you mean you automate the EQ on a reverb to change at different places on a track? Sometimes, but in this case I meant more like cut masking frequencies. Much like any other track you can get too much buildup of low and upper mids that make things cloudy. I'd cut some stuff back in those areas so I can have more apparent overall reverb, but not make it a muddy mess. You can also do tricks like cut the reverb highs to make the instruments "sink" into the mix and such without actually changing levels or cutting EQ on the instrument/vocal itself. But yeah, delving into a lot of "mix with the masters" type of educational media, I've found that most of the pros heavily automate and EQ their reverbs. The hardware guys will bring the hardware returns back to normal mixer channels and do it there while the ITB guys will bus it and automate/EQ just like any other track.
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 2, 2019 9:23:32 GMT -6
Thanks Svart. The Relab and the EMT-140 have EQ built in, but I bought the cheap 7th Heaven, so I had to put an EQ on the bus along with it.
I never thought of automating that EQ though. Maybe I’ll try that next time I’m mixing.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2019 9:46:29 GMT -6
Judging by you're list of hardware, i would go the software route. I mostly these days record in the old hardware Eventide, AKG spring if they are required as they are now very old to be left on with the cost of repair being an extra $$ killer. I have sold some like the AMS being replaced by UAD.
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Post by notneeson on May 2, 2019 9:51:08 GMT -6
Thanks Svart. The Relab and the EMT-140 have EQ built in, but I bought the cheap 7th Heaven, so I had to put an EQ on the bus along with it. I never thought of automating that EQ though. Maybe I’ll try that next time I’m mixing. It’s common to filter reverb sends heavily. Which isn’t to say you shouldn’t eq the return if that’s what gets you the results you need.
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Post by seawell on May 2, 2019 10:10:20 GMT -6
I finally got a Bricasti a couple of months ago. My bank account hoped it wouldn't be better than the plug ins I have but unfortunately it is. I get a lot of tracks to mix/master that weren't recorded in great spaces so it has been worth its weight in gold there. It reminds me of why I still use so much outboard compression, sure I can get something pretty great ITB but I get to where I want to go so much quicker with outboard that it's totally worth it to me. I honestly wish it weren't that way but at least to me that's still the case.
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Post by MorEQsThanAnswers on May 2, 2019 10:32:17 GMT -6
Sold my PCM70 when Valhalla Room came out, never looked back, was the last hardware reverb I owned (unless you count the Eventide H9 Max). It's all just digital code anyway. Agreed on the last part! Lexicon sells their Native software and I'd be interested in seeing how many long time Lex users can't differentiate. Assuming you use the digital I/O, could there REALLY be a difference besides DSP usage? The only sonic difference I predict would result from AD/DA, which likely scores in the software's favor anyways. Waves Abbey Road Plate Waves Abbey Road Chambers Altiverb Make a record. You have a mighty powerful computer my friend!! Those Waves plates are gorgeous, I just can't manage the hit on my laptop. UAD satellite is VERY necessary
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Post by the other mark williams on May 2, 2019 11:26:36 GMT -6
Claire is an old friend of mine! Nice to unexpectedly hear her voice pop up like that. That said, there's something in this reverb that doesn't quite work for me. There's a resonance in there somewhere I would be trying to EQ out. Which, you know, sometimes you have to do. So maybe I'd love it after carving it up a bit.
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