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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 22, 2014 11:12:26 GMT -6
With pres that have both input and output, if I want to hear more of my pre, can I hit the input of the compressor harder therefore having to lower the input of the compressor to achieve the same gain reduction and if I want to hear more of the character of my compressor, vice versa? Is "color" tied to the input knob, or is the color of the compressor the same no matter how hard you hit the input? When you turn the input up more, are you hitting tubes "harder"? And if that's the case, could the same be said for non-tube designs?
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Post by svart on Feb 22, 2014 11:18:47 GMT -6
It depends on the internal design of the preamp. With preamps that have their volume on the input, you'd have to turn it up to get the preamp color, therefor needing to turn the input of the compressor down. With preamps that have volume on the output, you don't have to turn them up and you can adjust as needed.
As for compressors, its the same deal. Where does the volume/gain control reside in the circuit? If it's in front, then you'd have to turn it up to get the sound, but you'd be compressing harder, etc.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 22, 2014 15:08:11 GMT -6
I understand driving the input on the pre...maybe I didn't present my question well.
Let's say I have two chains: (I'm gonna just keep it rudimentary)
Neve at 20db into Sta-Level with Input 50%...-10 gain reduction
Or
Neve at 40db into Sta-Level with Input 25%...-10 gain reduction
I would think I would hear more of the character of the Sta in the first chain than the second...but is that true? Or since it's the same amount of gain reduction, would the characteristics be the same?
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Post by popmann on Feb 22, 2014 16:48:49 GMT -6
"proper"...ie textbook gain staging is raise it with the earliest and cleanest in the chain to the level you need...and when a compressor's involved, you use it's makeup gain to raise it whatever the AVERAGE it's reducing. That said, that's intentionally avoiding the "character" of various circuits....ie--the saturation....and having an input stage on a compressor (rather than adjustable threshold) , spits in its general direction  . So, you have 5 gain stages before conversion I see. 2 on the preamp...2 you control and one you don't on the compressor. In the scenario you're talking about the thing you don't consider is that "hitting" the inputs of the compressor harder than line level will distort them...no matter where you set the "input knob". Right? My advice on you set up? FWIW. Take the compressor out first**. Set the preamp levels how they sound best and are averaging whatever your AD is calibrated at. A quick google didn't tell me what Symphony defaults are. Let's assume it's -18dbfs=0db. So, your basic "average peak" should be between -18 and -14dbfs....with some occasional peaks over. Right? So now, with that set, patch in the compressor. See if you can adjust the input and out so that level doesn't change AND you don't get gain reduction. Note this because next time this should be your starting point. Then...increase the input until you get the desired GR. there should be no need to adjust the output to make up for the GR....because you're raising the signal to find whatever fixed threshold already with the input side. Buy, mainly...with the compressor and all this intentionally "colorful" saturatey gear, you're turning knobs until you like...which is why it's important to NOT ever...increase the peak level with the compressor. Otherwise, everything sounds "better" compressed. **this is because a lot of old style units "bypass" is not truly bypassing all gain stages...,just turning off the GR circuit. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 25, 2014 19:21:16 GMT -6
" Buy, mainly...with the compressor and all this intentionally "colorful" saturatey gear, you're turning knobs until you like...which is why it's important to NOT ever...increase the peak level with the compressor. Otherwise, everything sounds "better" compressed. Are you just saying that everything will sound "better" just because it would be louder? |
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 25, 2014 19:21:50 GMT -6
" My advice on you set up? FWIW. Take the compressor out first**. Set the preamp levels how they sound best and are averaging whatever your AD is calibrated at. A quick google didn't tell me what Symphony defaults are. Let's assume it's -18dbfs=0db. So, your basic "average peak" should be between -18 and -14dbfs....with some occasional peaks over. Right? So now, with that set, patch in the compressor. See if you can adjust the input and out so that level doesn't change AND you don't get gain reduction. Note this because next time this should be your starting point. Then...increase the input until you get the desired GR. there should be no need to adjust the output to make up for the GR....because you're raising the signal to find whatever fixed threshold already with the input side. BTW - great info...thanks, Popmann! |
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Post by mulmany on Feb 25, 2014 21:05:39 GMT -6
" Buy, mainly...with the compressor and all this intentionally "colorful" saturatey gear, you're turning knobs until you like...which is why it's important to NOT ever...increase the peak level with the compressor. Otherwise, everything sounds "better" compressed. Are you just saying that everything will sound "better" just because it would be louder? Don't you know... louder is always better! Your ear/brain will always process a louder option as the better one, all other things being equal. I have been mixing with clients who will say they don't like the tone of a instrument and can I EQ it, and all I have to do is turn it up a little and now they love it. Nothing else changed. It happens all the time when adjusting compression. I usually try to gain match as close as possible and as I am switching it in and out of the channel 97% of the time the client says they liked it better 3dB up. Its always "go back to how it was", even though the compression character has stayed the same. I am pretty sure thats what Popman was talking about. |
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Post by popmann on Feb 25, 2014 22:13:59 GMT -6
Yes....I was guilty myself for a number of years. Since you've changed the dynamics...depending on how drastically and how much it really effects RMS level--it's hard to be scientific with it. But, my rule of thumb is to shoot for loudest passages being the same volume while toggling the bypass on the compressor. Which, if you're doing it during mix....your DAW can toggle bypass even if the analog unit doesn't have a hard bypass. This is the advantage, BTW--of setting the compressor (even an analog one) at mix time--many old school units don't have true bypasses....so, there's never a "fair" comparison. It's always got a couple different gain stages added in there...
Anyway...if you take a wimpy little signal....put it out into some cool sounding box (or I suppose a virtual one) and make it a whole different level, because you CAN now that you're shearing off peaks...you can't ever really hear what the compressor is doing versus what's different simply by being louder.
So, I get pretty OCD about it. And when you do? You get to know how/when/how much/which compressors are REALLY improving things....versus just crushing and making loud. You can then move the fader wherever--if you need to make it louder in the mix...it changes your perspective on how much compression is actually needed. At least it did mine--YMMV.
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