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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2014 17:48:56 GMT -6
14" K series hats are louder than 13" K series hats/ I have both here in my studio. It is a rare day when the 14s win out over the 13s, in any situation. the 13" k series Zidjians are just THAT good. Then someone explain how Greg Saunier uses 2 rides for a hi hat and makes them and the kit balance sound freaking amazing!? Is it that they're bigger but also thicker? Different sticks make a difference too. He hasn't swapped to nylon tips, has he? Sorry but I have to say this is hipster garbage. If you're having trouble with cymbals one thing I do is raise all of them up so the drummer doesn't have all the downward force. Ride sometimes needs to stay where it is. I have 12" Sabian AAX hats that are pretty cool sometimes for this problem but I'm not as crazy for them as my mastersounds. |
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Post by jazznoise on Feb 24, 2014 19:43:39 GMT -6
"2 Deep 4 U"
Not sure how anyone can watch Greg play a kit and not feel awe at what he can do with a kick, snare, hats and a cymbal. It's like someone injecting fun into your eyeballs!
Anyway, I think I'm starting to make sense of it. Bigger means it can move more air, but mass loading it reduces the extent by which it can do it. Having it super thin means it probably has a similar effect through the opposite mechanic - they have too high a compliance to really force the air to move. Am I getting it?
There's a few different YT videos on sticks, but rare few any good ones. Any drummers who haven't played with it, or non drummer like me, interested; Je presente
(Couldn't find any with hats)
(inb4 hipster garbage)
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Post by Ward on Feb 25, 2014 3:20:25 GMT -6
"2 Deep 4 U"
Not sure how anyone can watch Greg play a kit and not feel awe at what he can do ... That's ok. We all grapple with others' points of view from time to time. Case in point, I am completely uncertain how anyone could listen to more than 30 seconds of that without wanting to run chopsticks through their ears. See? Opinions vary, this one was just mine. |
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Post by cenafria on Feb 25, 2014 3:46:50 GMT -6
"2 Deep 4 U"
Not sure how anyone can watch Greg play a kit and not feel awe at what he can do with a kick, snare, hats and a cymbal. It's like someone injecting fun into your eyeballs! Anyway, I think I'm starting to make sense of it. Bigger means it can move more air, but mass loading it reduces the extent by which it can do it. Having it super thin means it probably has a similar effect through the opposite mechanic - they have too high a compliance to really force the air to move. Am I getting it? There's a few different YT videos on sticks, but rare few any good ones. Any drummers who haven't played with it, or non drummer like me, interested; Je presente(Couldn't find any with hats) (inb4 hipster garbage) In my experience, larger diameter cymbals (all else being equal) produce a lower "note". Thinner cymbals (all else being equal) sound more "shhh-shhh", thicker cymbals sound more "ping-ping". Usually it's bright, present cymbals that can be a problem. It's not so much a volume problem. Dark loud cymbals might be too loud for the balance you had envisioned for the recording, but probably wont steal attention from guitars, keyboards or vocals. All brands seem to make models that tend to be piercing and models that are darker. However, some are known for their bighter sound, such as Sabian. Meinl, for example, seem to be generally darker. (Off topic alert) Some Deerhoof records that I've really enjoyed are Green Cosmos and The Runners Four. I think those are good examples of what the band is about. Wasn't crazy about Deerhoof vs Evil and sort of lost track after that. I saw them live a couple of times here in Spain and they played their butts off. They presented their music with conviction. I would never consider them posers. |
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Post by cenafria on Feb 25, 2014 4:57:16 GMT -6
You need to tame the drummer. : ) Although I understand this post is intended to be humorous, it makes me think about how differently we all work and how we come up against very different problems and solutions. Many of the drummers I get to record sound fine (many times, they sound great) in the context of their bands, even if they are not technically excellent. It's good to be familiar with techniques to help you get closer to the sound that the band is aiming for. In my day to day, the band is often the artist, the composer, the arranger, the producer and the label. I better be paying attention to what they need! |
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Post by jazznoise on Feb 25, 2014 5:42:09 GMT -6
In my experience, larger diameter cymbals (all else being equal) produce a lower "note". Thinner cymbals (all else being equal) sound more "shhh-shhh", thicker cymbals sound more "ping-ping". Usually it's bright, present cymbals that can be a problem. It's not so much a volume problem. Dark loud cymbals might be too loud for the balance you had envisioned for the recording, but probably wont steal attention from guitars, keyboards or vocals. All brands seem to make models that tend to be piercing and models that are darker. However, some are known for their bighter sound, such as Sabian. Meinl, for example, seem to be generally darker. (Off topic alert) Some Deerhoof records that I've really enjoyed are Green Cosmos and The Runners Four. I think those are good examples of what the band is about. Wasn't crazy about Deerhoof vs Evil and sort of lost track after that. I saw them live a couple of times here in Spain and they played their butts off. They presented their music with conviction. I would never consider them posers. Cool, thanks for the synopsis! I've often throught similar - if I add more top to the overheads, I can brighten the hardware and the drums. But in many situations the cymbals are way brighter than the drums, so your balance is way off and you end up having to use more close mic than you'd like to push the drums forward and keep the cymbals back - and that has nasty bleed artifacts therein. Runners Four is really good. I love Offend Maggie as a gesture at the more classical side of their background. Deerhoof Vs. Evil and Breakup Song EP are both very good, but mixed way too loud. Quite fatiguing. At any rate I was joking about the "2 deep 4 u" comment. Let's hope I don't end up making fun of Altar Bridge or Garth Brooks when he gets here for the summer, or the whole board will blow up... |
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Post by cenafria on Feb 25, 2014 6:14:40 GMT -6
In my experience, larger diameter cymbals (all else being equal) produce a lower "note". Thinner cymbals (all else being equal) sound more "shhh-shhh", thicker cymbals sound more "ping-ping". Usually it's bright, present cymbals that can be a problem. It's not so much a volume problem. Dark loud cymbals might be too loud for the balance you had envisioned for the recording, but probably wont steal attention from guitars, keyboards or vocals. All brands seem to make models that tend to be piercing and models that are darker. However, some are known for their bighter sound, such as Sabian. Meinl, for example, seem to be generally darker. (Off topic alert) Some Deerhoof records that I've really enjoyed are Green Cosmos and The Runners Four. I think those are good examples of what the band is about. Wasn't crazy about Deerhoof vs Evil and sort of lost track after that. I saw them live a couple of times here in Spain and they played their butts off. They presented their music with conviction. I would never consider them posers. Cool, thanks for the synopsis! I've often throught similar - if I add more top to the overheads, I can brighten the hardware and the drums. But in many situations the cymbals are way brighter than the drums, so your balance is way off and you end up having to use more close mic than you'd like to push the drums forward and keep the cymbals back - and that has nasty bleed artifacts therein. Runners Four is really good. I love Offend Maggie as a gesture at the more classical side of their background. Deerhoof Vs. Evil and Breakup Song EP are both very good, but mixed way too loud. Quite fatiguing. At any rate I was joking about the "2 deep 4 u" comment. Let's hope I don't end up making fun of Altar Bridge or Garth Brooks when he gets here for the summer, or the whole board will blow up... No problem! Front of Kit mics instead of overheads can help as the highest frequencies radiating from the cymbals travel upwards and downwards in a figure of eight sort of pattern (by the way, this can be used to your advantage when placing tom mics. Sadly, hihats radiate differently, the bastards). The MS technique for FOK can be very useful for even more cymbal control. M and S signals can be eqd and compressed differently to great effect. At any rate I was joking about the "2 deep 4 u" comment. Let's hope I don't end up making fun of Altar Bridge or Garth Brooks when he gets here for the summer, or the whole board will blow up... Hee, hee... Yeah, I was also thinking of Garth Brooks while reading the disparaging comments about Deerhoof  |
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Post by drumrec on Feb 25, 2014 7:10:44 GMT -6
Putting aside that the drummer play more gently on hihat and cymbals, because I understand that it is very individual when you have different bands in the studio and that message does not always reach. Without exaggeration , it is at least 95 % of cases at the recordings I've done, it's been winning having dark cymbals from jazz to metal. If you want a brighter cymbals / hihat in the mix, it's the easy part, and not vice versa.
As well studios buy expensive preamps, compressors and not talk about everything we put in acoustics. So I think all studios makes itself a great service to purchase a set of dark cymbals. For those buggers can really ruin an entire recording.
A tip on a set of cymbals that I will buy in future. Auditioned them a recording, and then was completely sold. Not amongst the cheapest, but if you put it in against any other expenditure you do in a high end studio, it's small potatoes in the end, given that they can save a recording.
just my 1 cent
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Post by tonycamphd on Feb 25, 2014 7:44:55 GMT -6
Benny's cymbals sound great! big thin cymbals always record better ime. I use giant beat 15" hats, 24" ride, 17,18,19,20 crashes, they decay quickly and get the heck out da way 8) I also have 13" K/Z combo hats and sound edge 14" HH's that basically warm the bench full time.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 25, 2014 8:29:44 GMT -6
Putting aside that the drummer play more gently on hihat and cymbals, because I understand that it is very individual when you have different bands in the studio and that message does not always reach. Without exaggeration , it is at least 95 % of cases at the recordings I've done, it's been winning having dark cymbals from jazz to metal. If you want a brighter cymbals / hihat in the mix, it's the easy part, and not vice versa. As well studios buy expensive preamps, compressors and not talk about everything we put in acoustics. So I think all studios makes itself a great service to purchase a set of dark cymbals. For those buggers can really ruin an entire recording. A tip on a set of cymbals that I will buy in future. Auditioned them a recording, and then was completely sold. Not amongst the cheapest, but if you put it in against any other expenditure you do in a high end studio, it's small potatoes in the end, given that they can save a recording. just my 1 cent This video is really great. Great playing, great cymbal sounds, great drum sounds. I wish more companies had solid marketing like this. |
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Post by gouge on Feb 25, 2014 19:29:47 GMT -6
those vintage sand cymbals sound sweet to me. i got the k custom for the studio kit because they were darkish. but i can go darker.... hehe
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Post by gouge on Feb 25, 2014 19:33:27 GMT -6
deerhoof milkman wink.
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Post by cenafria on Feb 26, 2014 1:44:03 GMT -6
Putting aside that the drummer play more gently on hihat and cymbals, because I understand that it is very individual when you have different bands in the studio and that message does not always reach. Without exaggeration , it is at least 95 % of cases at the recordings I've done, it's been winning having dark cymbals from jazz to metal. If you want a brighter cymbals / hihat in the mix, it's the easy part, and not vice versa. As well studios buy expensive preamps, compressors and not talk about everything we put in acoustics. So I think all studios makes itself a great service to purchase a set of dark cymbals. For those buggers can really ruin an entire recording. A tip on a set of cymbals that I will buy in future. Auditioned them a recording, and then was completely sold. Not amongst the cheapest, but if you put it in against any other expenditure you do in a high end studio, it's small potatoes in the end, given that they can save a recording. just my 1 cent Excellent tip. We have a set of Turkish Classic series cymbals with a 15" hat and a 22" ride. It makes the world of difference on many sessions. I recorded a set of Byzance Dark cymbals year ago and liked them very much. I've always had good luck with Meinl cymbals. |
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