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Post by jeromemason on Dec 21, 2018 14:52:51 GMT -6
Being my Motu 16a will only accept Spidf via Lightpipe, I'd never really given this much thought as I have some Radio Shack used to sell that are in a nylon braided jacket and were not cheap at all. That being said, after I bought the new Dangerous AD + it had some notes in the manual where they talked a lot about good quality cables. So, that prompted me to do a search and I was floored that these can go from $3.99 to $500. It seems that all the HiFi guys back the pure glass with a minimum 300 strand count and also there was a lot about the tips being metal and also the tip ends of the glass being polished.
I may have even asked this before, I don't remember, but being that single cable has about $10,000 worth of converters and gear behind it, I certainly want to make sure I'm not missing anything here. Also the connection from the Motu to my Pro-Ject S2 is lightpipe as well, so there again, there is even more money behind that cable. I have no problem investing in a couple of 3' Toslink cables if it's truly necessary. Please let me know your experiences and suggestions on brands or certain cables.
This is something I don't understand with Motu, a RCA type Spidf I/O seems like it would had been so easy to implement on these boxes and most people say that's the best route. For us Motu users however, we don't have a choice.
Jerome Mason
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Post by jeromemason on Dec 21, 2018 16:56:55 GMT -6
Well, doing some research here I might have found a solution that gets rid of the Toslink cable all together..... Although, it's expensive compared to buying a couple of decent Toslink cables, it allows me to do what I want to do but also gives me a lot of expansion digitally for my setup. Motu sells a new half rack box called the 8 D. Basically it networks into your 16a via ethernet/AVB and has a pair of 2 in/out of Spidf and 2 in/out of AES/EBU along with WC I/O and a USB connection. Dangerous recommends going AES/EBU into the interface. I also would be able to go RCA Spidf into my ProJect S2 while having another pair of both AES and Spidf I/O if I wanted to expand in the future. The box sells for $595 but I'm sure I can get an open box or a deal from my guy Joel at Westlake Pro here in town. I figure I'd be spending around $200 for a good pair of glass Toslink cables, so why not just put in a little more money to get the extra digital I/O and the AES/EBU. Networked into the 16a over AVB will show it as one interface so I don't have to worry about aggregate devices either. Probably just going to go on and do this. The 16a is great at an amazing price, but has a few missing essential features, at least Motu has a solution for it and even buying the 8 D I'm still nearly half under what a new Apollo 16X costs. Even more under what an Apogee Symph MKII with 16 I/O would be. So for any guys out there on the Motu train that have this pesky problem, here is a fix. Westlake Pro Audio - Motu 8 D
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Post by svart on Dec 21, 2018 19:55:26 GMT -6
Well, doing some research here I might have found a solution that gets rid of the Toslink cable all together..... Although, it's expensive compared to buying a couple of decent Toslink cables, it allows me to do what I want to do but also gives me a lot of expansion digitally for my setup. Motu sells a new half rack box called the 8 D. Basically it networks into your 16a via ethernet/AVB and has a pair of 2 in/out of Spidf and 2 in/out of AES/EBU along with WC I/O and a USB connection. Dangerous recommends going AES/EBU into the interface. I also would be able to go RCA Spidf into my ProJect S2 while having another pair of both AES and Spidf I/O if I wanted to expand in the future. The box sells for $595 but I'm sure I can get an open box or a deal from my guy Joel at Westlake Pro here in town. I figure I'd be spending around $200 for a good pair of glass Toslink cables, so why not just put in a little more money to get the extra digital I/O and the AES/EBU. Networked into the 16a over AVB will show it as one interface so I don't have to worry about aggregate devices either. Probably just going to go on and do this. The 16a is great at an amazing price, but has a few missing essential features, at least Motu has a solution for it and even buying the 8 D I'm still nearly half under what a new Apollo 16X costs. Even more under what an Apogee Symph MKII with 16 I/O would be. So for any guys out there on the Motu train that have this pesky problem, here is a fix. Westlake Pro Audio - Motu 8 DThere is no reason to worry about the optical cables. Just use the cheap ones. spdif/AES protocol is very slow. You also know that digital is on or off. The transceivers trigger off of edges of the transitions, so there is no worry about amplitude issues from lesser polishing on ends. The amplitude is still high enough that inclusions or cracks in the plastic won't attenuate much. A lot of fiber, even high speed, high cost stuff, is still plastic cored. Mainly with fiber it's the end polish that makes most of the difference unless you're using multiple wavelengths on single fibers. Also, there is no performance difference between coax and fiber in spdif/AES except at higher bitrates, which the cheap optical transceivers can't handle anyway, so don't worry about trying to go to coax from an optical port. The only downside to any of the lightpipe protocols (spdif/aes/adat) is that the common LED based transceivers are super slow, and the better ones used for things like madi are much more expensive which is why they're not used in commodity products. Another interesting tidbit is that most toslink transceivers don't have polished interfaces, so your expensive super-polished cable isn't doing much at all BTW, there was never a coax standard for adat like there was for spdif/AES, which is why you never see coax adat. Even though spdif/AES and adat are biphase clock type signals, they are nothing alike at the protocol layer and are 100% incompatible. BTW 2, I designed a jitter test unit for 2.5Ghz optical multimode fiber. It measured jitter in the femptosecond range over miles of test fiber.. A couple feet of plastic fiber absolutely won't matter for a few 96khz signals.
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Post by jeromemason on Dec 21, 2018 20:23:25 GMT -6
Thanks for that info.
I think I'll just keep the cables I have for right now because I haven't had one single complaint from any of the producers I work for or clients I work for saying they feel my mixes are flat, quite on the contrary actually...... But, I do think I am definitely in on getting this Motu 8 D because that will round out my connection issues on the digital side. If Dangerous is telling me "hey look, no worries using the lightpipe for now, but we recommend AES and good quality 150ohm cables at that." I take that pretty seriously because if it didn't matter they wouldn't be saying it. Also on the DAC side, having the Spidf coax does make a difference because I've heard it. It's kind of like you can see the painting and all it's beauty and colors, but (on Coax Spidf) the colors are more bold and textured.
Like I said, I'm not complaining on having to grab this Motu 8 D, considering I paid $1,200 for my 16a and that I'll likely get the 8 D for $475, that puts me at $1,675 all in for a no compromise 16 analog/16 digital I/O interface that's ESS Sabre and networkable. It would be nice to see Motu put these digital connections in their next version
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Post by svart on Dec 21, 2018 20:35:10 GMT -6
Thanks for that info. I think I'll just keep the cables I have for right now because I haven't had one single complaint from any of the producers I work for or clients I work for saying they feel my mixes are flat, quite on the contrary actually...... But, I do think I am definitely in on getting this Motu 8 D because that will round out my connection issues on the digital side. If Dangerous is telling me "hey look, no worries using the lightpipe for now, but we recommend AES and good quality 150ohm cables at that." I take that pretty seriously because if it didn't matter they wouldn't be saying it. Also on the DAC side, having the Spidf coax does make a difference because I've heard it. It's kind of like you can see the painting and all it's beauty and colors, but (on Coax Spidf) the colors are more bold and textured. Like I said, I'm not complaining on having to grab this Motu 8 D, considering I paid $1,200 for my 16a and that I'll likely get the 8 D for $475, that puts me at $1,675 all in for a no compromise 16 analog/16 digital I/O interface that's ESS Sabre and networkable. It would be nice to see Motu put these digital connections in their next version I designed a converter using spdif/AES and it was quite the learning experience, and one thing I can tell you from that is that the receiver and transmitter chips are the same for optical and coax, spdif and AES. Usually the designer just chooses one or the other and the coax is run directly into or out of the chip while the optical goes into or out of the chip to the driving LED or receiving phototransistor. Not really much between them to create a difference in sound, unless the designers did something outlandish in their buffering, which would mean something is wrong with the design, not that coax is better than optical. Also, by the nature of the biphase clocking in the streaming signal, which means the bitclock is part of the digital audio streams, if there was significant enough change in the stream to elicit a change in fidelity, the transceiver PLLs would lose streamlock and you'd get clicks on the audio. These chips don't recognize grey areas in the digital streams. They use something called Schmitt triggers on their input pins. These are essentially hard decision points for the chip, and the signal is either seen as a High/1 or Low/0. The chip ignores everything in between that doesn't meet the threshold. If a bit doesn't meet the threshold then you'll get a bit error and your PLLs will start to slip out of lock and you'll possibly get a click or pop or lose the signal altogether if enough of the bits are lost.
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Post by jeromemason on Dec 21, 2018 20:44:35 GMT -6
I hear ya..... But I trust those guys about their boxes, and if they make it a point to use something specific I'm going to follow it best I can.
I do appreciate you explaining all that to me though, makes me feel a lot better about using the light pipe in the interim and knowing I haven't sent files with artifacts to my clients!
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Post by svart on Dec 21, 2018 20:56:42 GMT -6
I hear ya..... But I trust those guys about their boxes, and if they make it a point to use something specific I'm going to follow it best I can. I do appreciate you explaining all that to me though, makes me feel a lot better about using the light pipe in the interim and knowing I haven't sent files with artifacts to my clients! I think the biggest problem with the super cheap toslink cables is how well they fit into their receptacles. The cheap ones rarely fit, either too tight or too loose. I had some that I got rid of because they'd vibrate out of the transceiver sockets over time from the fan vibration of the computer in the same rack. I think I also had one that just wouldn't go into a socket. I bought some 5$ ones instead of the 1$ ones simply because they fit well, with a good solid click into the socket.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,109
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Post by ericn on Dec 21, 2018 22:00:00 GMT -6
Plastic fiber transmitters & Recirvers work best with plastic, glass works best with glass. All the Adat transmitters and relievers are plastic.
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