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Post by matt@IAA on Dec 7, 2018 17:38:08 GMT -6
I could use some keen ears. I'm doing some selecting and I have four transformers, all with the same circuit behind them. This test was done with four identical SDCs (two matched pairs) taped together, level matched before a single take, and then the subsequent files are normalized to match levels. It's as near scientific as I can get, I think. www.dropbox.com/sh/45hyh8aprlfnjl5/AADBan_KB4uYQSNimKnuuO8Na?dl=0Which do y'all prefer and why?
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Post by jtc111 on Dec 7, 2018 18:07:27 GMT -6
I thought #1 stood out. It had a fullness that the others lacked. Putting them in order of best to worst, 1, 4, 3, 2. 4 and 3 were close but 4 had a bit more depth to the sound. 2 sounded a bit flat compared to the others.
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Post by matt@IAA on Dec 8, 2018 12:18:41 GMT -6
The input transformers are - in no particular order - Cinemag CM75101 Cinemag RE0887 Cinemag CMMI10C Jensen JT-110K
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,014
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Post by ericn on Dec 8, 2018 21:52:25 GMT -6
Matt, you know what I like.
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Post by matt@IAA on Dec 8, 2018 22:49:28 GMT -6
Matt, you know what I like. sure but that kind of talk will get our wives mad Seriously - you haven’t heard these combos before. Different op amp! Which is your fav?
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Post by iamasound on Dec 9, 2018 1:33:37 GMT -6
Thanks for putting in the time to put this test together, I for one haven't been privy to a transformer shootout and so never really could appreciate until now the oft times not so subtle difference they can truely make in a signal path. That said, I first thought that it was a younger Lowden Wainwright III singing, and outside of that similarity thought that the singer has a killer, distinctive voice.
#1 for the clarity and the way it might stand out in a mix for how it defines the transients, then in close order as they all seemed variations of a common theme, 3, 4 and finally the darker 2. My guess is that #1 is the Jensen as it to me sounded the outsider of the group.
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Post by christopher on Dec 9, 2018 1:56:30 GMT -6
Ok well this was very weird for me. Yes I had a few beers, Saturday night. I listened while streaming, and it had some stuttering. But I still got some imagery. Have you been to Disneyland? Well.. 1 was like Main Street, nothing out of place and very professional as expected.. 2 was fantasyland, less lows but very dreamy and extremely magical like being in the clouds. 3 was Adventureland and my favorite, wet lows and got the heart pumping. I could see the crocodiles poking their heads out of the water. Yeah it’s that good! 4 was tommorowland, nice and pleasant and easy to escape into, a fun place to hang out.
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Post by swurveman on Dec 9, 2018 8:47:07 GMT -6
I preferred the fullness of #1 as well.
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Post by drumhead57 on Dec 9, 2018 9:53:16 GMT -6
#1 sounds best to me as well. Richer, warmer.
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Post by EmRR on Dec 9, 2018 18:29:28 GMT -6
Cinemag CM75101 - 150:15K, max 20Hz -5dBu Cinemag RE0887 - don't find any data Cinemag CMMI10C - 150:15K, max 20Hz +5dBu Jensen JT-110K - 150:9K6 max 20Hz -2dBu
Headphones from laptop, hardly a critical listening session:
1 - sounds the most pillowy and distorted, has some high mid restriction/cloudiness compared to the others, seems slightly rolled off in very top, but that may be due to distortion enhancements in lower registers. Sounds the most 'like a transformer'. 2 - sounds quieter than the others, maybe the most 'invisible'. 3 and 4, I can convince myself I'm hearing various things that change on subsequent passes.
Most of the differences between 2-4 are easily differences in the mics more than in the transformers.
I'd add to the test with program material fed through appropriate pads at appropriate levels as another benchmark.
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Post by matt@IAA on Dec 9, 2018 20:08:11 GMT -6
Yes - and the different turns ratios mean slightly different loading on the mic, so that’s less than ideal. I didn’t feel like adjusting the load resistor. But, I figured using a condenser would reduce the sensitivity some.
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Post by EmRR on Dec 9, 2018 20:12:30 GMT -6
What is the load resistor, and is there a Zobel? What are the mics?
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 9, 2018 20:37:41 GMT -6
But, I figured using a condenser would reduce the sensitivity some. Why would you assume that?
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Post by matt@IAA on Dec 9, 2018 20:38:45 GMT -6
Using a 150k so a 1:10 vs 1:8 is 1500 vs 2300, plus or minus minor winding variance. No zobel on any of them. I’m using 3U CM127s because it’s the only thing I have four of.
I’ve done frequency response testing on all of these. Unsurprisingly we’re talking about a difference of generally less than a dB, almost all of it in the low lows and very highs. The entire range of frequency response on these four is around 0.7 dB at 20Hz and all are within a few tenths at 20k, with the exception of the CMMI10C. From 300 to 3k they are almost identical.
It gets down to how you like your distortion.
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Post by matt@IAA on Dec 9, 2018 20:41:51 GMT -6
But, I figured using a condenser would reduce the sensitivity some. Why would you assume that? It depends on the circuitry in the mic. Some can drive lower loads without a significant change in their output and frequency response. I’ve simulated the KM84 in Spice and while the gain changes quite a bit as you change the load, the frequency and phase shift doesn’t change much at all until you get to fairly drastic changes. I can dig up the sim, if you like. Edit: Just found it, and going from 1500 to 2300 on the circuit load changes the low frequency behavior negligibly (delta from 20Hz to 1kHz gain is 7.099 vs 7.104 dB - rounding error). Anyway, these aren’t 84s but I suspect they’re not too far off. Which transformer did you like?
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Post by bluegrassdan on Dec 9, 2018 22:00:35 GMT -6
I would be skeptical that all four microphones sound identical, even those matched pairs. There could be as much sonic variation between capsules and head amps as there is between the transformers.
I'd just go with the Jensen. Can't think of a company that has contributed more to "new" transformer designs in the past 40 years than them.
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Post by bluegrassdan on Dec 9, 2018 22:03:27 GMT -6
A good test for mic input transformers is to send a line-level musical signal through a "line to preamp" box, like what Peterson Goodwin sells on DIY Recording Equipment. Then, you can do seperate passes of the same singal through different transformers and hear the differences.
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Post by Vincent R. on Dec 9, 2018 22:36:44 GMT -6
I thought #1 stood out. It had a fullness that the others lacked. Putting them in order of best to worst, 1, 4, 3, 2. 4 and 3 were close but 4 had a bit more depth to the sound. 2 sounded a bit flat compared to the others. My feelings exactly!
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Post by matt@IAA on Dec 9, 2018 23:20:11 GMT -6
A good test for mic input transformers is to send a line-level musical signal through a "line to preamp" box, like what Peterson Goodwin sells on DIY Recording Equipment. Then, you can do seperate passes of the same singal through different transformers and hear the differences. Thanks - this is a good suggestion, program material obviously will eliminate the last mile fog here. Part of this was that it was just kinda fun.
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Post by EmRR on Dec 10, 2018 9:05:42 GMT -6
A good test for mic input transformers is to send a line-level musical signal through a "line to preamp" box, like what Peterson Goodwin sells on DIY Recording Equipment. Then, you can do seperate passes of the same singal through different transformers and hear the differences. Just use a standard 20dB pad. Three $0.12 resistors. As I suggested above. The higher the attenuation out of a pad like this, the greater the high frequency roll-off from what I've seen. 12dB might be a more ideal combination of series resistance and shunt, combined with lowered levels driving it.
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Post by Guitar on Dec 10, 2018 15:32:47 GMT -6
2 was too dark, least favorite
1 is nice and full around 60-100 Hz. Almost sounds like a "loudness EQ" curve.
4 is a nice slightly brighter more "even" sound
3 was alright
4 and 1 are my favorites
kudos for tackling a freddie mercury vocal that's something outside of my ability or vocal range
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Post by matt@IAA on Dec 13, 2018 12:59:08 GMT -6
Forgot about this -- they were 1 - Jensen 2 - CM75101 3 - CMMI10 4 - RE0887
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