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Post by Randge on Jul 12, 2015 2:29:32 GMT -6
I use it differently, according to the individual song's needs. I don't hear any ambience loss between snare and overheads personally. I also have tons of PZM's and room Mics up and don't align those since they are in Omni. I have spent a lot of time using this plug and trying things. I hear it clean up comb filtering noise and leave the depth in my own room situation.
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Post by jazznoise on Jul 12, 2015 5:26:46 GMT -6
I also have tons of PZM's and room Mics up and don't align those since they are in Omni. I'm curious, why not for omnis? because it captures all the drums equally? Or because it's purely for reverb? |
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Post by gouge on Jul 12, 2015 9:59:55 GMT -6
I thought the mautoalign was pretty good. Use it on close mics only and only a few mics at that. I feel applying it across the whole kit wasn't making the most of it.
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Post by jazznoise on Jul 12, 2015 16:48:28 GMT -6
I thought the mautoalign was pretty good. Use it on close mics only and only a few mics at that. I feel applying it across the whole kit wasn't making the most of it. Here's something I think will interest you, Gouge. I decided to pull up the old Mult for Nirvana's Very Ape and give it a go on the drums there. I felt picking something quite famous would mean no one would argue that the drum sounded wasn't good/not a good example. Here it is unalligned, no processing just rough levels: www.dropbox.com/s/6zv0qptzjn3mdo2/Very%20Ape%20Drums%20UnAligned.mp3?dl=0Here is is after time alligning the close mics, OH's and Room Mics: www.dropbox.com/s/5yd34sa2t3lpzex/Very%20Ape%20Drums%20Aligned.mp3?dl=0What's interesting is the lack of the "flam" induced by the delay in ambience makes the snare sound much drier. At the same rate it pulls things like the cymbals and, interestingly, the bleed from the bass guitar forward too. |
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Post by gouge on Jul 12, 2015 17:43:56 GMT -6
yep that's what it did to my stuff as well so that's a great example.
for me I ditched it when the demo ran out because there was only one or 2 occasions where I thought it enhanced the sounds I like and I do like a fatter sound anyways.
but as your example shows you can adjust the position of the snare and the presence which I thought was very cool and can help in dense mixes. works well on electric guitars too.
I think what your example shows best is it doesn't reduce the quality.
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Post by swurveman on Jul 12, 2015 18:29:35 GMT -6
I thought the mautoalign was pretty good. Use it on close mics only and only a few mics at that. I feel applying it across the whole kit wasn't making the most of it. Here's something I think will interest you, Gouge. I decided to pull up the old Mult for Nirvana's Very Ape and give it a go on the drums there. I felt picking something quite famous would mean no one would argue that the drum sounded wasn't good/not a good example. Here it is unalligned, no processing just rough levels: Here is is after time alligning the close mics, OH's and Room Mics: What's interesting is the lack of the "flam" induced by the delay in ambience makes the snare sound much drier. At the same rate it pulls things like the cymbals and, interestingly, the bleed from the bass guitar forward too. To me, the kick drum sounds more ambient in the unaligned version. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 12, 2015 19:58:59 GMT -6
I've never been able to make the two mic thing work for acoustic guitar. Maybe I'll demo this next time I'm tracking, just to see if this helps. Thanks Randge.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107 
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Post by ericn on Jul 12, 2015 20:26:57 GMT -6
My dream console has a module with Phase Alignment and High and Low pass with 2520 footprint opamps in say 500 format !
Paging Mr Stieger!
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Post by wiz on Jul 12, 2015 20:33:52 GMT -6
My dream console has a module with Phase Alignment and High and Low pass with 2520 footprint opamps in say 500 format ! Paging Mr Stieger! for 100 bucks? 8) cheers Wiz |
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107
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Post by ericn on Jul 12, 2015 20:38:12 GMT -6
My dream console has a module with Phase Alignment and High and Low pass with 2520 footprint opamps in say 500 format ! Paging Mr Stieger! for 100 bucks? 8) cheers Wiz I DId say "dream" didn't I ? |
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Post by Randge on Jul 12, 2015 20:38:30 GMT -6
I also have tons of PZM's and room Mics up and don't align those since they are in Omni. I'm curious, why not for omnis? because it captures all the drums equally? Or because it's purely for reverb? Well, there just aren't many phase issues when using omni pattern and it didn't seem to add anything when I tried using AutoAlign on them. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 12, 2015 21:07:20 GMT -6
Having close mics in relation to distant mics(overheads/rooms) when capturing, then pulling the close mics to match overheads is FACTUALLY ruining the phase coherency of the whole kit, this is not debateable, think about it. There are ways to improve things if they weren't captured well with phase aligning, but it too is a compromise, proper capture still rules the day.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jul 12, 2015 21:54:56 GMT -6
Having close mics in relation to distant mics(overheads/rooms) when capturing, then pulling the close mics to match overheads is FACTUALLY ruining the phase coherency of the whole kit, this is not debateable, think about it. There are ways to improve things if they weren't captured well with phase aligning, but it too is a compromise, proper capture still rules the day. Tone Chill my man In absolute terms your right BUT this is audio and if the effect works it works ! What people are doing and this is really just semantics is Phase Aligninment of the close mics and Phase adjustment of the OH and Room mics ! Of course your whole points assumes that your OH mics and chain is Phase coherent bro! |
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Post by Randge on Jul 12, 2015 21:58:04 GMT -6
I am getting proper capture as close as humanly possible. I am a phase freak, actually. Even my snare mics are perfectly in line instead of one up and one down, kicked 180 out like everyone else seems to do it. I do two 45 degree angles and it sounds amazing. I am really happy with the sounds I have been getting, so, in the end, that is all that matters. Being around A-list studios all the time, I have a lot of opportunity to compare and for the most pat, I like my sounds better.
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Post by Randge on Jul 12, 2015 22:00:50 GMT -6
I also can spread them out of phase as much as I want to with the plugin. Its very handy to get what you are striving for. Clearly, Tony feels this plugin is a joke and needs to justify that opinion in some fashion. So be it. To each their own. As for me, I am beautifully in proper phase and love the plug.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 12, 2015 22:15:49 GMT -6
Having close mics in relation to distant mics(overheads/rooms) when capturing, then pulling the close mics to match overheads is FACTUALLY ruining the phase coherency of the whole kit, this is not debateable, think about it. There are ways to improve things if they weren't captured well with phase aligning, but it too is a compromise, proper capture still rules the day. Tone Chill my man In absolute terms your right BUT this is audio and if the effect works it works ! What people are doing and this is really just semantics is Phase Aligninment of the close mics and Phase adjustment of the OH and Room mics ! Of course your whole points assumes that your OH mics and chain is Phase coherent bro! I'm chill bro, just sayin 8) |
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 12, 2015 22:25:23 GMT -6
I also can spread them out of phase as much as I want to with the plugin. Its very handy to get what you are striving for. Clearly, Tony feels this plugin is a joke and needs to justify that opinion in some fashion. So be it. To each their own. As for me, I am beautifully in proper phase and love the plug. Sorry if that came off weird, I'm totally fine here, please don't misread me, I had a very good explanation written out, but it disappeared when i tried to post it.. doh!! I have not used the plug, I bet it works great and probably quickly on a stereo mic'd single source, and of course this is art, and to each his own, but there is no way anyone should be suggesting this is "phase aligning" pertaining to a multi mic'd drum kit, because it simply is not possible, thats all I was saying..... poorly i guess. Ultimately it's whatever is clever for you. |
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Post by Randge on Jul 12, 2015 22:31:27 GMT -6
That is where I get the most use out of the plug. Multi micing acoustic instruments. Top and bottom mic an acoustic guitar at the 12 fret or so and put a Cloud or Royer ribbon at the players shoulder. Run the AutoAlign on them and even if I get it where it sounds perfectly in phase, the plug will dime it down to the centimeter. It is a fun game I play with myself trying to get it perfect manually, when I track stereo reso. I have only nailed it twice in a year. I am usually off by 5-8 centimeters or so when the plug does its thing.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 12, 2015 22:37:49 GMT -6
That is where I get the most use out of the plug. Multi micing acoustic instruments. Top and bottom mic an acoustic guitar at the 12 fret or so and put a Cloud or Royer ribbon at the players shoulder. Run the AutoAlign on them and even if I get it where it sounds perfectly in phase, the plug will dime it down to the centimeter. It is a fun game I play with myself trying to get it perfect manually, when I track stereo reso. I have only nailed it twice in a year. I am usually off by 5-8 centimeters or so when the plug does its thing. cool idea! i'm going to demo the plug just to try that game 8) Are you hearing an improvement over what you set up by ear as compared to the plug? what do you mean by off 5-8 centimeters?.. on the waveform? |
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Post by gouge on Jul 12, 2015 22:46:32 GMT -6
The plug has a built in a/b button.
Handy.
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Post by Randge on Jul 12, 2015 23:10:23 GMT -6
That is where I get the most use out of the plug. Multi micing acoustic instruments. Top and bottom mic an acoustic guitar at the 12 fret or so and put a Cloud or Royer ribbon at the players shoulder. Run the AutoAlign on them and even if I get it where it sounds perfectly in phase, the plug will dime it down to the centimeter. It is a fun game I play with myself trying to get it perfect manually, when I track stereo reso. I have only nailed it twice in a year. I am usually off by 5-8 centimeters or so when the plug does its thing. cool idea! i'm going to demo the plug just to try that game 8) Are you hearing an improvement over what you set up by ear as compared to the plug? what do you mean by off 5-8 centimeters?.. on the waveform? The plug tells you exactly how far apart they are from perfect phase and aligns them. You can do it in increments or just let it do its thing, which is fine by my ears. |
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Post by warrenfirehouse on Jul 12, 2015 23:53:13 GMT -6
I can understand people's worries about what this can do to your image, but for me the benefit far outways the damage. Does it change the image? Yes. But I wouldnt say it makes it worse, just different.
I track drums in my smallish home studio (low celings) and even though I have treated it thoroughly, I still get some boxiness and phasing. Auto aligning close mics to overheads does some amazing things.
1. Clears up the big picture in the mix and solidifies the low end of the drums
2. Takes care of alot of eq moves I would make with out it, therefore less eq overall
3. Helps especially the tom mics really support the overheads instead of fighting them. This leads to needing less of the close mics overall, which helps with bleed issues, and a more natural final drum mix
I can totally understand peoples beef with this technique, and why theoretically it shouldnt work, but man every time I ab with and without, it's a no contest which one I prefer.
After a few days of playing with both, I've come to a confident conclusion that the sound radix plug is superior to the melda one. I like the fact that you can analyze tracks one at a time, and it just seems that the algo is more accurate and reliable. The melda is kind of a crapshoot. You run it 10 times and get 10 completely different numbers. Same feeling with the drum leveler plugs.
Life is good, between auto align and drum leveler for some transparent compression/expansion, my last few drum mixes have been tight, focused, punchy, yet still NATURAL.
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Post by warrenfirehouse on Jul 12, 2015 23:56:58 GMT -6
Randge, John says you align to top snare, how exactly are you going about it. I'm guessing you lock both overheads to the snare, then kick and toms to the overheads?
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Post by jazznoise on Jul 13, 2015 0:37:59 GMT -6
Obviously to each their opn. Personally I don't set up room and overhead mics to have each drum come out with the kind of seperation you'll get from time alignment, I feel I could do that with reverb after the fact. However I can understand why people do it, and I can definitely see why Mix Engineers who receive stems from all sorts of projects might do it.
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Post by Randge on Jul 13, 2015 8:12:16 GMT -6
I have been starting with snare and trying that first. Sometimes I do as Sound Radix suggests and go from snare to overheads and overheads to the rest. It varies from song to song as I simply try different things and am still experimenting with the plug. I also have a lower ceiling in my drum area and the place is killed dead to deal with it. It made a huge difference for me when I started using it. I do have two of my room mics about 8' in front of my kit on a Bluiem line bar and I AutoAlign the two of them to each other. That really makes a huge difference in my overall kit's focus.
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