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Post by Randge on Feb 15, 2014 12:40:40 GMT -6
Anyone here used this plug yet? I have had to mix projects coming from outside my studio and it has really helped. Guitars that were recorded a bit out of phase and drums too for that matter have really benefited from it. It is way tighter than visually lining up tracks in post. Free trial, so it can't hurt to try it for yourselves. Let me know what you think. www.soundradix.com/products/auto-alignR |
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 15, 2014 16:07:12 GMT -6
I bet that is a lifesaver when you get in out of phase stuff. Most of the stuff I get in is just Nashville demo stuff and I haven't really heard any offending recordings. So it automatically corrects the phase problems? It lines the two up almost like Vocalign or something?
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 15, 2014 16:09:10 GMT -6
So - polarity - is that just when something is 180 degrees out of phase? Pardon my stupidity...
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Post by tonycamphd on Feb 15, 2014 16:54:20 GMT -6
So - polarity - is that just when something is 180 degrees out of phase? Pardon my stupidity... Yes, Reversed polarity= electronically wired out of phase, when one sorce is 180* out of phase in relation to the norm of other sources( -/+ are wired opposite). When eqipment is wired properly(mics), wave forms usually don't end up exactly out of phase unless it's intentional, usually get comb filtering and phase wash robbing signal strength, punch and clarity. |
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Post by Randge on Feb 15, 2014 19:12:57 GMT -6
Even two mics placed very well on an acoustic guitar are still out of phase a hair. Unless you are measuring very accurately, it is inevitable. This plug makes them match up dead on. It is pretty surprising the difference it makes. I haven't had any tracks that were terribly out of phase come in recently, but I have before. Here are some of their promo vids for drums and guitar. I have tightened up some tracks today in mix that I recorded recently that sounded pretty good to begin with. It made them more clear and helped them cut the mix better.
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Post by noah shain on Feb 15, 2014 19:46:12 GMT -6
It's so good! Love it. Bass di and amp...bam!!!!
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 15, 2014 20:57:37 GMT -6
Wow - interesting...gonna have to check that out.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Feb 16, 2014 15:33:23 GMT -6
Can't we do the same with Waves In Phase?
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Post by popmann on Feb 16, 2014 16:04:38 GMT -6
You know...sort of...and I've not used this--I DID demo In Phase and found it useless on drums. I found the same with the hardware IBP--for the same reason, they're frequency dependent phase.
Time, you can manually correct in any DAW.
Polarity, I use a freeware plug called "PhaseBug" that allows 360deg phase (or as pointed out technically just the polarity half of phase) adjustment.
But, I find there's no "right/wrong"...it's a matter of the least phase cancellation that is ALSO sonically negative as you can dial in. There's good argument that distance mics NEED time discrepancy to achieve the sound they're supposed to achieve, as well.
Part of the reason we USE two mics on an acoustic guitar (when I do) is because of the inherent phase differences that leads to a wider stereo image. They're directly related...and a balancing act. I LOVE the Leslie to whir from speaker to speaker. The more you "correct" it's phase relationship, the less drama that results. But, I found the IBP and In Phase to basically be a different coloring tool--rather than better/ worse than manually addressing issues by ear.
To further that--with a drum kit--are you gating the direct tom mics? Or downward expanding them greatly? If so, then your main concern is less cancellation with the always on overheads during tom hits. But, if you're going to leave them more "always on" with minimal expansion, then your main concern is making sure that they don't steal energy from the snare, which is a much more integral and constant sounding kit piece to "the groove". If that comes at the expense of a little tom cancellation, it does.
I'm really surprised that audio DAWs don't come with stock 360degree phase adjustment. The little freebie I use isn't available for OSX...and is literally the only buggy plug in I use (you have to literally disable the plug in--as simply bypassing it doesn't actually bypass it in Cubase).
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Post by popmann on Feb 16, 2014 16:07:37 GMT -6
BTW...I am going to demo this next time I get a whole kit to mix. Because, if it magically works...well, I don't know what their asking price is...but, if not an arm and a leg, I could certainly make use of it.
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Post by Randge on Feb 17, 2014 1:01:45 GMT -6
$150.00 I believe. I sure like comparing the standard two mics on their own and trying this plugin against that sound in the mix. Most of the time, I am preferring the clarity it enhances. If I were doing my own recorded drums, I would just use the snare as the root focus and do just the toms and overheads leaving the rest of the kit alone. Remember, with this plug, you can dial it to exactly what you want it to be. It isn't an all or nothing.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 17, 2014 9:45:04 GMT -6
So, wouldn't aligning the overheads reduce the size of the drums? I guess what I'm trying to say is - doesn't the fact that they don't align perfectly give it a bigger sound? I could totally be wrong on this - I was told there was no math...
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Post by Randge on Feb 17, 2014 10:29:29 GMT -6
Just matching your overheads uniformly will make a big change, John. As I said before, you can dial in the distance all you want.
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Post by popmann on Feb 17, 2014 10:33:52 GMT -6
Not IMO...rooms, yes...those need to have a time differential as part of the intended sound...but, with overheads (usually) you're talking about tiny measurements. FWIW--I align TO the overheads if there's a problem...the degree to which any of this matters has a lot to do with the tracking engineer and how many mics they felt like they HAD to have on a kit. Tom close mics are the issue (IME)...if you have a four mic kick/snare/overhead kit, I don't usually find any benefit in messing with the time end of the phase. Meanwhile...someone sends 5 rack tom mics, ALL picking up the snare at 5 different times/angles? We have a problem.
Anyway...I'll have some coming in this week (one chicken two chickens...) so, maybe I'll pull the demo of this. In Phase I found horribly confusing UI and completely manual at the end of the day--I can DO it manually...but, if this guy brings it into focus fast and easy, it'd be well worth the scratch.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 17, 2014 10:47:44 GMT -6
Interesting! So - you're saying aligning the OH's to the snare? (I'll have to read through the thread again...) Maybe it's worth an A/B comparison here. I've got some Chad Cromwell tracks I might try this on and post...
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Post by Randge on Feb 17, 2014 11:27:00 GMT -6
Watch the drum vid of theirs that I posted and see how they are doing it. It is pretty slick and a time saver.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Feb 17, 2014 14:50:01 GMT -6
So, wouldn't aligning the overheads reduce the size of the drums? I guess what I'm trying to say is - doesn't the fact that they don't align perfectly give it a bigger sound? I could totally be wrong on this - I was told there was no math... I've found aligning the overheads to be very nice. Yes it does narrow the field a bit but it also cleans the whole kit up (comb filtering). I like overheads much better properly aligned. It's what we hear most of the time in high end recordings. However I doubt those engineers resort to using allinment after the fact. My guess is they spend hours manually aligning mics before the takes. I don't have the time for that nor do the folks I record have the budget for it. |
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Post by ElGato on Feb 18, 2014 15:55:09 GMT -6
So, wouldn't aligning the overheads reduce the size of the drums? I guess what I'm trying to say is - doesn't the fact that they don't align perfectly give it a bigger sound? I could totally be wrong on this - I was told there was no math... I've found aligning the overheads to be very nice. Yes it does narrow the field a bit but it also cleans the whole kit up (comb filtering). I like overheads much better properly aligned. It's what we hear most of the time in high end recordings. However I doubt those engineers resort to using allinment after the fact. My guess is they spend hours manually aligning mics before the takes. I don't have the time for that nor do the folks I record have the budget for it. I agree. I guess this is a tool for fixing live recordings and such. I read Butch Vig some time ago saying he never aligns shit as it kills the "bigness" of the kit. Just get it right at the source. Never tried software aligning on just the OH's, though. |
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Post by levon on Feb 19, 2014 0:42:16 GMT -6
If you just align the OHs, wouldn't they than be 'out of sync' with the snare and tom mics? I could imagine it would be better to align everything to the snare for instanced. Am I completely off track here?
I tried this plugin on a bass that was tracked with 2 mics and it made it better. Not day and night, but it got tighter and you could definitely hear that.
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Post by littlesicily on Feb 19, 2014 13:03:33 GMT -6
How might this software improve a vocal/acgtr performance with 2 mics? Is it applicable here?
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Post by littlesicily on Feb 19, 2014 21:10:45 GMT -6
Anyone?
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Post by popmann on Feb 19, 2014 22:01:04 GMT -6
Interesting thought--why don't you try? Actually I have a performance I just did testing the Burl doing just that...maybe I should try it...but, the problem is--there's no "right" correction for both. You have to adjust it for the vocal....or for the guitar. In my case, there's very little vocal in the guitar mic....and LOTS of guitar in the vocal mic. So, I guess you'd correct for the guitar?
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Post by gouge on Feb 20, 2014 2:26:20 GMT -6
I'm kinda interested in this. the tom mic thing is something that has worried me in the past but I've somewhat satisfied that concern by using mutes or gates or cuts in the tracks.
if you are doing that is there still an advantage. I guess the answer is yes but I hope it's no... :-)
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Post by littlesicily on Feb 20, 2014 14:23:53 GMT -6
Interesting thought--why don't you try? Actually I have a performance I just did testing the Burl doing just that...maybe I should try it...but, the problem is--there's no "right" correction for both. You have to adjust it for the vocal....or for the guitar. In my case, there's very little vocal in the guitar mic....and LOTS of guitar in the vocal mic. So, I guess you'd correct for the guitar? Right... w/ two mics and two sources it gets complicated and no perfect fix. I've tried the IBP and sometimes get it "better" but never perfect. |
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Post by popmann on Feb 27, 2014 13:54:33 GMT -6
It works completely automatically...and well (IMO). I'm not happy about the CPU hit to do what I do manually...and at some point, I'll get geeky and print:
-kit without
-kit with
-kit manually done
Just to see whether it's doing a better job than I would manually or just saving time. But, time saving no frigging doubt. You basically don't have to know what you're doing. Well...I may take something for granted...but, I don't THINK you have to know what you're doing.
The real test is when I send the link to the drummer who played on this stuff, who is as wonderful a drummer as he is NOT an engineer...can HE figure it out and achieve this as quickly.
As a side note...I also downloaded their "pi mixer" to play with for the same 30 day demo. They make intriguing stuff. In a world where everyone seems to be chasing some kind of analog vintage dragon, they're doing things that are A)about fidelity and not content manipulation BS and B)only possible in a digital box...I also downloaded their Surfer EQ, but it simply didn't work. Meaning--hung Cubase trying to open...so, I dragged it out of the folder, and the other two work fine. WTF? It didn't conceptually intrigue me like the Pi Mixer does. Anyway, it'll be an interesting 30 days...this is my own stuff, too, now...so...this is when I experiment. But, if it works well...I'll buy so I can use on the next client stuff.
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