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Post by tonycamphd on Feb 13, 2014 17:48:27 GMT -6
I'm not a performer. I'm not an artist. I'm a songwriter...so maybe I have cut corners in the past... U creat original music=artist U sing and play very well( much better than a whole lot of "famous" performers)= performer Whatchu talkin bout man?? Not to mention that diffuser u created! Now that's art! 8) |
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 13, 2014 18:08:47 GMT -6
See - you gotsta go and bring up the diffuser...
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Post by jazznoise on Feb 13, 2014 18:14:58 GMT -6
But, the argument that it's "just a tool" ignores the negative impact of empowerment. Not unlike "guns don't kill people". It's both 100% true...and completely ineffective and pointless way looking at causal relationships and who gets to wield the tool and how. I'll agree there. I often here people say that drum replacement, quantization etc. is a tool but they're being disingenuous because they slather it on everything to avoid seeming anything less than their peers. I'll never autotune a good singer, it's literally a problem I deal with every possible way before mixdown. Come mix if we could never get a good, well tuned vocal (I say we because a bad engineer contributes to the problem) then I'll have to reach for it. But I've had to mix live gigs where the vocals get summed and the backing singer is just murdering his part, and you can't go putting that out on a pop radio station. It'll ruin that artists attempt at showcasing themselves, so you gotta go for the cop-out and tune em. Not sure why my major third comment made you laugh so hard, but I guess I'm glad! |
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Post by popmann on Feb 13, 2014 19:00:33 GMT -6
Digital correction has NEVER made good music better. It HAS made great music worse. It has ruined perfectly good singers' who are insecure about their singing. You know, occasionally, you make a lot of sense  As long as it's occasional, we'll blame it on an off day. JN, Because a maj 3rd NEEDS to be flat compared to concert pitch to actually BE in tune in an ensemble. ...ie, the A in an Fmaj chord should not be 440. Overtones don't beat correctly. Don't trust me...go to your guitar...play and F note...sing the arpeggio into a recorder. The A should be a little flat...the C a little sharp. That's actually why I owned an AT license years ago with the Gigastudio rig. String samples are tuned to 440. That's not what a string ensemble would play. So, I would render the lines and use AT's "just intonation" for the key to retune them. Now, VSL's VIPro does that inside the instrument in real time...if you tell it to. Cubase implemented sending microtuning over MIDI a bunch of versions back--that got me to retire it...but, VSLs inside the instrument is WAY easier. |
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Post by jeromemason on Feb 13, 2014 19:06:18 GMT -6
Mark my words--click tracks and autotune are the gated snare reverbs and chorused guitars of the millenium. This too shall pass--and you will be embarrassed by your work during it. I know I am... I sure hope you're right..... that would mean that a mass exodus of untalented people that are getting air time would be replaced by actual talent that may not be as sexy or look the part. Today it seems like all they care about is the right look. Here's an analogy for you, at some point or another we've all been in the situation where the hot girl we finally scored after months and months of convincing turns out to be a sack of potatoes between the sheets. Boy did she look great, but you might as well had been watching cars rust. But we all know the not so hot booty call that's in our contacts list can make the smoking hot girl seem like a blow up doll. Unfortunately there's no Autosex out there, but there is Autotune to make all those sexy, look the part people, sound like they can hold a tune. There are exceptions, some people have both, and that's wonderful, they were born stars. But today a lot of them are just made and that's the industry we are in right now, at least for the top 100 of pretty much all genre's. I will say, that in the last 8 or so years it does seem like more actual talented people are becoming famous, I think a lot of the reality contest shows are responsible for that. The judges place a lot of weight on the performers ability of being on pitch, and the stage for people that wouldn't had been discovered is much larger. The only issue I see here is that Joe Public doesn't know any better. We are sitting here talking about how some of us have honed our engineering and editing practices so that we can make tuning somewhat transparent. If you think that Joe Public can hear those subtleties then you and I will just have to disagree there. I've tuned tracks for people and done the original vs the tuned and all I've ever gotten was "wow! I can't believe how great it sounds now". Once the slamming drums, rocking guitars, and tricky delays get added in there they could care less on the bending of a weird note, or some of the realness being sucked out. Again, I hope you're right, and I'll be glad when that day comes, but I'm not sure of just how soon that's gonna be. |
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Post by jazznoise on Feb 13, 2014 19:20:41 GMT -6
popmannI'm aware of the dangers of Equal Temperment. But sometimes if there's lots of big thirds in the arrangement that's ET then using a just major third sounds worse. I prefer just pitching, and I'll also quite often have the pitch bend wheel on my keyboard set to +/- a microtone for some fine adjusting (plus cool quarter tone FX..hey, it works on the string intro to Soft Bulletin..) Also when I think of pop production one of the first things I think of is big manky major 3rds on sawtooth synths. Especially in closed triad voicings - sometimes on those really bright synth sounds it's just earsplitting. But I think it's also on purpose. I'm pretty sure ET is a big part of why root based chord voicings now dominate pop so completely. It can makes walking basslines really clunky. For those reading these posts wondering what we're nitpicking - read How Equal Temperment Ruined Harmony And Why You Should Care.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2014 19:21:22 GMT -6
I'm not a performer. I'm not an artist. I'm a songwriter...so maybe I have cut corners in the past... Hey... You never know. You're set well to be the next Michael Bolten. From writer to artist to .... Wait, nevermind. That will prolly get me banned rat thar. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 13, 2014 19:33:52 GMT -6
You know, occasionally, you make a lot of sense As long as it's occasional, we'll blame it on an off day. JN, Because a maj 3rd NEEDS to be flat compared to concert pitch to actually BE in tune in an ensemble. ...ie, the A in an Fmaj chord should not be 440. Overtones don't beat correctly. Don't trust me...go to your guitar...play and F note...sing the arpeggio into a recorder. The A should be a little flat...the C a little sharp. That's actually why I owned an AT license years ago with the Gigastudio rig. String samples are tuned to 440. That's not what a string ensemble would play. So, I would render the lines and use AT's "just intonation" for the key to retune them. Now, VSL's VIPro does that inside the instrument in real time...if you tell it to. Cubase implemented sending microtuning over MIDI a bunch of versions back--that got me to retire it...but, VSLs inside the instrument is WAY easier. I KNEW there was a nerdy Berklee inside joke in there...I actually looked Major 3rd up on google...still didn't get it... BTW - I know absolutely nothing about theory...and I was never good at math. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 13, 2014 19:36:54 GMT -6
Mark my words--click tracks and autotune are the gated snare reverbs and chorused guitars of the millenium. This too shall pass--and you will be embarrassed by your work during it. I know I am... Pop, you're en freaking fuego tonight...I've gotsta share this on FB... |
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 13, 2014 19:39:27 GMT -6
I'm not a performer. I'm not an artist. I'm a songwriter...so maybe I have cut corners in the past... Hey... You never know. You're set well to be the next Michael Bolten. From writer to artist to .... Wait, nevermind. That will prolly get me banned rat thar. Dood - I would take Michael Bolton's career in a freaking second...He prob banked more in 3 Honda ads making fun of himself than I have in the last half decade... Speaking of Michael Bolton, have you guys listened to "How Am I Supposed To Live Without You" since the early 90's? Holy crap...great song...and he was a writer on it. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 13, 2014 19:40:08 GMT -6
I hope so Popmann, I hope so.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2014 19:45:21 GMT -6
Of course. He's making easy money these days.
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Post by joey808 on Feb 13, 2014 20:31:06 GMT -6
I hate that f***ing plugin!
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Post by popmann on Feb 13, 2014 20:55:07 GMT -6
That was one of the first 45s I ever bought. Laura Brannigan doing it in like what 83? Speaking of a singer who wouldn't sound the same today--warbly..."pitchy dawg"...and MAN what a voice. No one sounded like that. That used to be a good thing...now it's viewed as something that needs fixing. He was once a great writer, IMO. But, the problem with writers being on a hit binge doesn't change (at least hasn't in my adult life)...they start to phone it in because they have to churn them out while the gettin's good...and end up losing the (musical) respect they should have. The cycle of an album every 18-24months is too much to sustain for any single writer. Not if you also expect them to tour and do press for most of that time. Pink's in that cycle now. While I certainly don't wish her lack of success...as a fan, I'll welcome it when it inevitably happens. She'll go back to being good. Doing music cause she's got something to say and not because she's contractually obligated. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 13, 2014 21:43:34 GMT -6
It's a little like the greyhound catching the rabbit too...It's a young man's game - to work that hard...
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Post by Ward on Feb 13, 2014 21:43:38 GMT -6
Well, I hope you guys don't run me off then. I use Melodyne in a meticulous manner. If I can't hear it, then i'm good but I'm sure that will change in a few years or with the next set of monitors. In fact, I have surprised myself thinking I created an artifact and in truth, it was my voice. Oh well.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 13, 2014 22:21:09 GMT -6
I know Michael Bolton, though it's been a long time since we've bumped into each other. We did some gigs together, and my band shared a loft in New Haven with him for a while. This was before he had a record deal. Believe me, that guy was the real deal, your jaw just dropped when he began singing. It was like hearing Otis Redding or Sam Cook, that good. And, he was a great guy too, supportive of my band, never displayed a big ego or attitude. He tried to find the right niche, but that's not so easy for a white guy who sounds like a black guy. I think he decided to become a ballad singer because otherwise, he'd have lost support of his label and management. Whatever direction he took musically, I'll never forget that he was real to me, and offered to help me once with an introduction to his publisher, and I wasn't ready at the time. He also does a lot of charity work and is very generous. So, as an artist, I understand the fair, and unfair criticism, but as a person, he's top drawer.
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Post by drbill on Feb 13, 2014 22:52:18 GMT -6
I don't try to save the world from themselves. Guns DON'T kill people. They don't pull the trigger themselves. Also, no one puts auto tune on without the producer saying "OK". So use those guns and pull the trigger on dumb producah's. Guns are cool, and Auto Tune ROCKS!! Use both to eradicate bad performances. heh |
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Post by drbill on Feb 13, 2014 23:02:28 GMT -6
Digital correction has NEVER made good music better. It HAS made great music worse. On the first....that's ridiculous and 1000% wrong. On the second, you are absolutely correct, although I'm sure that half of it I wouldn't want to hear anyway.... |
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Post by popmann on Feb 14, 2014 10:40:04 GMT -6
GOOD music better. You really think that's "ridiculously wrong"? Obviously our experiences are different....and likely out definitions of both "good".
So, what you're saying....and I'm sure you will offer as proof is that in the last ten years, a super duper, hyper-ly "better than good" has been made possible? Maybe there's more GREAT recordings made today with this tech? If no, I'm not the one making a ridiculously speculative point. Show me the super music. Show me the artist who made great music prior to the mid 90s, who makes insanely super powered unbelievable music now. Or the young artist making super music compared to the young artist of the early 90s (or previous). I'm completely open to the theory....but, it's been decades now without proof of the "evolution" of some super music.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 14, 2014 10:47:10 GMT -6
No fighting, children...Take it to Gearslutz...
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Feb 14, 2014 10:48:43 GMT -6
Nothing was ever equal tempered prior to the musical train wreck that was MIDI.
I say musical train wreck having gotten sucked into that fantasy big-time myself. The result has been everything sort-of but never really in tune or in time. Out-A-Tune always screws severely with time. So do headphones and the overdubbing process. Electronic tuners are yet another source of things being almost but never quite tune.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Feb 14, 2014 11:37:31 GMT -6
I'm not a performer. I'm not an artist. I'm a songwriter...so maybe I have cut corners in the past... Bullshit. Your a singer if there ever was one. I think your way too hard on yourself because you live and work in a place that demands people to be perfect. Well here's some front page news fellas, there's only one perfect man and none of us are Him. I LIKE hearing notes that aren't perfect in a song. Dr Ralph Stanley has made a life study of singing off key and I'd stand in the rain to listen to him but wouldn't walk out to the back porch to listen to 90% of the so called singers on country radio. Be real. That's what hits people where they live IMO. |
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Post by popmann on Feb 14, 2014 11:51:45 GMT -6
No fighting, children...Take it to Gearslutz... I'm not close to fightin' words, am I? I mean, I didn't even continue the gun control analogy...being the pinky hippie bastid I am-that was hard.  I really want to hear the super music this has enabled. I have no high horse to ride on--if slicing and dicing ACTUALLY made good music better, I'd be slicing and dicing my brains out. There has simply just been no proof offered in decades of this capability. I agree in theory--it should allow less repetition in the studio--thus more inspired first takes where X glitch is digitally fixed...but, just because there's a new audience who has these tools available for the first time (various digital manipulations)--many have had these for a long time. Working with the best musicians, too. And, in about two decades of ProTools, I've yet to hear any evolution of super music happen. You can't keep repeating a failed hypothesis. Yes--twenty years ago, that WAS the promise of hard drive based non linear digital audio. Where's the evolution of super music that has resulted from decades of nearly every professional engineer and/or musician having access to this? |
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Post by drbill on Feb 14, 2014 12:02:45 GMT -6
Boys, I gots no time to get into this further. Today starts a 2 week move process for my studio and residence out of state. So needless to say, I'll be busy. Your points on how autotune has "wrecked" music is well taken, but I don't think we can put the blame entirely on AT.
Overdubbing, Editing, Multitracking, etc. have all had their place in removing music one more step from Live Performance. That is if live performance is your goal. For many music makers, it is decidedly not the goal. There are many examples of magnificent scores and records that absolutely could not have been made without the benefits of modern technology. PT CAN be used as a live 2 track only live performance documentation / capture environment. Yet it rarely is used that way. Is that the fault of the DAW or the Producer?
I'll go back to my original statement. It's the Producer / Psychopath that abuse musical gear / guns. You can fix both by removing all the tools / guns from reach of all people, but then you will loose a lot of great music and sportsmanship from the planet.
If you have not heard great music since the mid 90's I honestly feel very sorry for you. Look harder - it's out there. Use your tools responsibly and in good taste to make the musical world a BETTER place. not a lazier one.
PS - and ditto - no one is fighting here....
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