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Post by chessparov on Jul 12, 2018 14:58:14 GMT -6
Figured I'd really learn some things, by asking the astute members of this board, a comparison of these two classic microphones. Thanks in advance for your responses. Chris EDIT: Am curious in both directions. 251 vs. C12 too!  A 2024 Bump!  |
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Post by Ward on Jul 12, 2018 16:31:15 GMT -6
Simply put, If a Neumann U47 with the K47 capsule and VF14M tube were merged with a really good C12, you would have a Telefunken ELA M251
Or, if the two had a child, it would be the 251
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Post by chessparov on Jul 12, 2018 18:11:05 GMT -6
Thanks! I've never had the opportunity to sing through an "original" of either the C12 or 251. But I have tried the Telefunken (repro) C12 & 251, and the Flea C12. My "wow" was the Flea C12 (they were very close though), but haven't A/B'd them directly, at the same time. I have done a bit of background reading on some other threads with other knowledgeable folks like J.J. Blair, Klaus, et al. (just enough learning to be mildly dangerous!) Chris |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 12, 2018 18:29:56 GMT -6
Isn’t a 251 simply a c12 with a few extra resisters to roll off the top end? I never understand why people think these mikes are so different they aren’t actually ?
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Post by Guitar on Jul 13, 2018 6:13:35 GMT -6
Isn’t a 251 simply a c12 with a few extra resisters to roll off the top end? I never understand why people think these mikes are so different they aren’t actually ? The ELAM 251 has a 100 pF capacitor (not resistors) to tame the high end a little bit. They have slightly different capsules, different circuits (tube bias, pattern selection, coupling, etc), different head grilles. It all adds up to being a different microphone. Kind of like the Jaguar vs the Jazzmaster to use a Fender guitar metaphor. David Bock has a good technical post on one of the pro forums about these mics. I can find it if anyone is interested. |
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Post by svart on Jul 13, 2018 6:21:14 GMT -6
Yeah I don't find them to be terribly different. C12 has more top end which makes it seem a little more sparkly with the right tube.
C12 is not a great choice for singers with a lot of shrillness to their voice, while a 251 is a bit better in this regard.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 13, 2018 6:34:43 GMT -6
@monkey I thought originally a marketing or distribution contract lapsed so that the original c12 could no longer be supplied, so very minor changes were made and the new mike was called the 251? Later on they may have made further changes but not originally ?
I know that I have read this was the case ?
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Post by Guitar on Jul 13, 2018 7:04:22 GMT -6
@monkey I thought originally a marketing or distribution contract lapsed so that the original c12 could no longer be supplied, so very minor changes were made and the new mike was called the 251? Later on they may have made further changes but not originally ? I know that I have read this was the case ? I think the story is something like this: Neumann was providing U47 to Telefunken. VF14 tubes stop being made so the U47 and U48 are discontinued. Telefunken needs a new flagship microphone. AKG is contracted to come up with something with a current production tube and they come up with the ELA M251, which of course is the "Telefunken 251." Not the AKG 251. It was something like starting with the AKG C12 design and pushing it more in the direction of the U47 to fill that gap. Hence the bigger body, more bass response, etc. |
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Post by indiehouse on Jul 13, 2018 7:14:07 GMT -6
Isn’t a 251 simply a c12 with a few extra resisters to roll off the top end? I never understand why people think these mikes are so different they aren’t actually ? The ELAM 251 has a 100 pF capacitor (not resistors) to tame the high end a little bit. They have slightly different capsules, different circuits (tube bias, pattern selection, coupling, etc), different head grilles. It all adds up to being a different microphone. Kind of like the Jaguar vs the Jazzmaster to use a Fender guitar metaphor. David Bock has a good technical post on one of the pro forums about these mics. I can find it if anyone is interested. They use different capsules? |
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Post by Guitar on Jul 13, 2018 7:21:29 GMT -6
The ELAM 251 has a 100 pF capacitor (not resistors) to tame the high end a little bit. They have slightly different capsules, different circuits (tube bias, pattern selection, coupling, etc), different head grilles. It all adds up to being a different microphone. Kind of like the Jaguar vs the Jazzmaster to use a Fender guitar metaphor. David Bock has a good technical post on one of the pro forums about these mics. I can find it if anyone is interested. They use different capsules? I think David Bock said the 251 capsule was "tuned for a little more low end." Apologies for the paraphrase. They are both CK-12 style capsules, however. Maybe if Tim Campbell sees this thread he can give some expert commentary. |
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Post by Guitar on Jul 13, 2018 7:23:25 GMT -6
I'm gonna go ahead and post this screeenshot here for some clarity:  |
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Post by mcirish on Jul 13, 2018 13:12:15 GMT -6
That's great info. I've had the chance to work with a 251 and a U48 but never a C12. I think the 251 was my favorite, though I own a Wunder CM7GTS/M7. I wish I had the money to get one, but alas, my daughter needs to finish her masters degree... the sacrifices of a parent. :-)
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Post by chessparov on Jul 13, 2018 13:55:05 GMT -6
Great info-Thanks! Based on it, I wouldn't be surprised if the capsule Tim C. designed for the Flea C12, is somewhat "darker" than the typical/weighted average AKG C12. The Flea C12 "lingered in my mind", long after singing through it at Vintage King (L.A.)!
If it was at all "too bright/spitty/overly sibilant", I would have noticed it (my voice has a strong 6.5 KHz peak).
Chris
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Post by adamjbrass on Jul 13, 2018 13:59:26 GMT -6
I find the C12 a little less "etched" out and hyper shaped sounding, compared to the ELAM251. The 251 shoots the sound out of the speakers like a rocket. While the C12 just sounds like money flying out of the speakers.
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Post by winetree on Jul 13, 2018 14:04:13 GMT -6
While the C12 just sounds like money flying out of the pocket.
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Post by Guitar on Jul 13, 2018 14:58:12 GMT -6
Adam J Brass I think you got the C12 confused with a slot machine
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Post by rowmat on Jul 13, 2018 16:51:22 GMT -6
We have a Bock 251 and a Matador/Chunger DIY C12 with a Tim Campbell C12 capsule and fitted with a NOS GE tube.
When I first used the Bock 251 I was surprised just how much low end it had which can make it seem subjectively darker than you think especially when close mixing due to its proximity effect.
The low end also goes down very low as it is quite sensitive to distant traffic rumble such as large trucks.
The Bock has the biggest output transformer I've seen in a mic.
In comparison the DIY C12 sounds brighter than the Bock.
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Post by Guitar on Jul 13, 2018 17:25:41 GMT -6
We have a Bock 251 and a Matador/Chunger DIY C12 with a Tim Campbell C12 capsule and fitted with a NOS GE tube. When I first used the Bock 251 I was surprised just how much low end it had which can make it seem subjectively darker than you think especially when close mixing due to its proximity effect. The low end also goes down very low as it is quite sensitive to distant traffic rumble such as large trucks. The Bock has the biggest output transformer I've seen in a mic. In comparison the DIY C12 sounds brighter than the Bock. David Bock's design criteria was to keep the 251 sound but extend the low and the high end bandwidth, both, on his mics. I suppose that fits with what you said. I wish I have heard one but only on records. |
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Post by nnajar on Jul 14, 2018 9:43:25 GMT -6
The c12 is like a cream tea in Devon and the 251 is like a cream tea in Cornwall
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Post by Ward on Jul 14, 2018 16:06:42 GMT -6
The c12 is like a cream tea in Devon and the 251 is like a cream tea in Cornwall Poppycock! |
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Post by chessparov on Jul 17, 2018 7:53:28 GMT -6
Thanks again everyone... Chris
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Post by adamjbrass on Jul 17, 2018 12:14:38 GMT -6
Adam J Brass I think you got the C12 confused with a slot machine Its a reverse slot machine. It sucks the coins out of your pockets when you pull the handle |
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Post by Guitar on Jul 17, 2018 15:22:24 GMT -6
Adam J Brass I think you got the C12 confused with a slot machine Its a reverse slot machine. It sucks the coins out of your pockets when you pull the handle Haha! |
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Post by chessparov on Feb 6, 2024 3:00:27 GMT -6
Been over 5 years! Further thoughts? Including the various "Inspired By's" (I personally prefer that to the moniker "Clones") So we could expand this out to C12 Styles vs. 251 Styles. Warmest Regards Chris |
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Post by lowlou on Aug 28, 2024 13:33:24 GMT -6
An extract from the SOS article about Jay Kay's Jamiroquai personal studio in the late 90s. www.soundonsound.com/people/jay-kay-jamiroquais-chillington-studio"One vital component of that list is the vintage AKG C12 valve microphone Pope recently managed to track down. "It's the perfect vocal microphone for Jay and he loves it," Pope explains. "When we were building the studio Jay was really keen to experiment and wanted to demo as many microphones as possible. I had a rack of them set up — all sorts of different mics — and he tried them all. The one that sounded like a million dollars was the AKG valve C12. We tried the cheaper, reissued version but it didn't have the same quality, so we set about finding an original. I've just managed to track one down and it took ages — eight months, to be precise. I finally got it through Crystal Pro Audio, a company run by Pete Brotzman who I used to work with at Britannia Row. It was a hassle, but it was worth the effort because it will last Jay for his entire career."" |
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A 2024 Bump! 
