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Post by seawell on Jul 11, 2018 16:27:03 GMT -6
Lately I'm really diggin' the Binson emulation by Audiority: www.audiority.com/shop/echoes-t7e/ . It's definitely offering some unique options I haven't found in the usual plug in suspects. |
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Post by Quint on Jul 11, 2018 16:48:26 GMT -6
Had lots over the years but I've settled on the Eventide H9 for hardware and a variety of plugins depending on the situation. I do miss my RE-201! I miss my RE-201 also. And my RE-150. Would really like an RE-555 and a Korg Stage Echo.
I have never encountered any digital Space Echo emulation that works right. They always miss something, usually two or more somethings. That includes the Boss pedal.
Try the Strymon El Capistan. It might change your mind. |
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Post by Quint on Jul 11, 2018 16:49:49 GMT -6
I use the Strymon Deco a ton. Love that thing. It does all of the old school tape tricks (slapback, flanger, chorus) plus some really great saturation. Never tried the Timeline but I'd like to. Wow, that pedal looks cool. I'm assuming you use it on all sorts of things besides guitar, yes? I'm wondering how that would stack up against the T-Rex Replicator and/or Fullton Echoplex. An analog tape delay is on my bucket list of gear to get, but maybe this fits just as well? Yes, I use it all over the place. Guitar and other instruments going in and then at mix time as well. There are some really great demo videos on YouTube put out by Strymon. |
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Post by notneeson on Jul 11, 2018 16:57:33 GMT -6
I used to use the Massey delay a lot but have gotten out of the habit favoring things like H Delay and J37 etc.
Have gotten also gotten a surprising amount of mileage out of the delays (as well as modulation) built into Pod Farm (echoplex. memory man etc). Funny enough, it was a free plugin. I don't typically find the amp models useful for much more than scratch tracks.
Lately I've been helping a client get sounds with Helix Native and it seems like a solid upgrade to Pod Farm. I have not had time to explore, but I'm curious about using the effects in Helix on more than guitar.
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 11, 2018 17:02:09 GMT -6
I miss my RE-201 also. And my RE-150. Would really like an RE-555 and a Korg Stage Echo.
I have never encountered any digital Space Echo emulation that works right. They always miss something, usually two or more somethings. That includes the Boss pedal.
Try the Strymon El Capistan. It might change your mind. Thanhks for the tip! Does the Strymon do a multi-head emulation? If so, what happens to the delay speed contgrol when you switch "head" configurations? None of the digital versions I've seen keep the (relative) "motor speed" timing the same when you change the "head" config - they all revert to a default. One of the things I used to do all the time was change the head selector from one setting to another for different parts of a song while keeping the motor speed constant. Can't do that with any emulation I've seen to date. I also have yet to see one that correctly emulates "tape saturtation" vis-a-vis the overload light*. There's a couple of other little quirks that the digital designers just totally miss that allow useful tricks on the original hardware - one gets the impression that none of them had a guy who was a real FOH Space Echo jockey on their design teams to tell them about stuff like that.
* - it seems like most designers regard saturation as an "on-off" sort of thing but on as real Space Echo is a continuum that you can judge by how hard you're hitting the overload light. On emulations like the Boss pedal when the light flashes you're getting digital clipping that sounds bad; on the original hardware most people use the light as almost a "signal present" indicator because when it starts to blink you're getting just enough level to barely start saturating the tape and are probably not clipping the electronics at all (judging by the sound). It's definitely not devolving into obvious distortion until the light's on more continuously.
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Post by Quint on Jul 11, 2018 17:18:18 GMT -6
Try the Strymon El Capistan. It might change your mind. Thanhks for the tip! Does the Strymon do a multi-head emulation? If so, what happens to the delay speed contgrol when you switch "head" configurations? None of the digital versions I've seen keep the (relative) "motor speed" timing the same when you change the "head" config - they all revert to a default. One of the things I used to do all the time was change the head selector from one setting to another for different parts of a song while keeping the motor speed constant. Can't do that with any emulation I've seen to date. I also have yet to see one that correctly emulates "tape saturtation" vis-a-vis the overload light*. There's a couple of other little quirks that the digital designers just totally miss that allow useful tricks on the original hardware - one gets the impression that none of them had a guy who was a real FOH Space Echo jockey on their design teams to tell them about stuff like that.
* - it seems like most designers regard saturation as an "on-off" sort of thing but on as real Space Echo is a continuum that you can judge by how hard you're hitting the overload light. On emulations like the Boss pedal when the light flashes you're getting digital clipping that sounds bad; on the original hardware most people use the light as almost a "signal present" indicator because when it starts to blink you're getting just enough level to barely start saturating the tape and are probably not clipping the electronics at all (judging by the sound). It's definitely not devolving into obvious distortion until the light's on more continuously.
Yes, it does multi head. It's very deep in the ways that you can manipulate it. It has an entire Sharc chip inside that runs at 96k. Read more about it or watch some of the videos. Strymon pedals are the bees knees. And many of them are designed to also accept line level signal too. So that's a bonus at mixdown. On the Deco and El Capistan, you can actually hear the tape speed up and slow down as you turn the knob to change speeds/delay length and create that sort of warbly sound. Like I said, their emulation goes pretty deep. |
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 12, 2018 2:32:12 GMT -6
Well, I spent about an hour or so on the Styrymon site and didn't see any mention of the issues that bother me. I suspect I'll have to go to a store that carries them and do a demo, which is a bit of a problem because I'm about a hour and a half drive out of SF now and none of the local shops out herre are very good.
They do have an impressive array of features including a buinch of stuff I essentially regard as "features" for hipsters that I nerither need nor want. Why would I want a "worn taper" control? Why would I want to adjust "tape crinkle"? Why the HELL would I want a "wow and flutter" control? I don't need to emulate a unit that's in need of service and only fools who never actually use tape professionally would want them. What I weant in a tape echo is not what it does when it's broken! I'd much rather that the put the r&d into getting the operation of the machine correct.
As to things I need, I don't even see an overload light at all. And obviously there's no meter.
As to the motor speed/head switching thing I suspect that the reason all the digital emulations get it wrong is something to do with the way the pedals use clock speed to set delay time. The easy was is to simply change the speed of the same clock for both time set by motor speed and time set by head spacing. I'm pretty sure that to get the emulation right would require separate clocks and possibly even a second stage of time processing. I'm also pretty sure that nobody's really thought much about it because it's something that guitar players wouldn't do - only engineers would even think of it. For a guitarist to do the same trick would require pedal control of head selection, and I've never heard of a tape echo that could do that.
I realize that my requirements are somewhat specialized, but it's also one of the things that makes a Space Echo so cool to use with a console.
Anyway I AM going to look for a chance to demo one, as I enjoy being pleasantly surprised. Who knows? Maybe they did get it right?
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Post by stormymondays on Jul 12, 2018 4:04:49 GMT -6
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jul 12, 2018 6:35:51 GMT -6
Well, I spent about an hour or so on the Styrymon site and didn't see any mention of the issues that bother me. I suspect I'll have to go to a store that carries them and do a demo, which is a bit of a problem because I'm about a hour and a half drive out of SF now and none of the local shops out herre are very good.
They do have an impressive array of features including a buinch of stuff I essentially regard as "features" for hipsters that I nerither need nor want. Why would I want a "worn taper" control? Why would I want to adjust "tape crinkle"? Why the HELL would I want a "wow and flutter" control? I don't need to emulate a unit that's in need of service and only fools who never actually use tape professionally would want them. What I weant in a tape echo is not what it does when it's broken! I'd much rather that the put the r&d into getting the operation of the machine correct.
As to things I need, I don't even see an overload light at all. And obviously there's no meter.
As to the motor speed/head switching thing I suspect that the reason all the digital emulations get it wrong is something to do with the way the pedals use clock speed to set delay time. The easy was is to simply change the speed of the same clock for both time set by motor speed and time set by head spacing. I'm pretty sure that to get the emulation right would require separate clocks and possibly even a second stage of time processing. I'm also pretty sure that nobody's really thought much about it because it's something that guitar players wouldn't do - only engineers would even think of it. For a guitarist to do the same trick would require pedal control of head selection, and I've never heard of a tape echo that could do that.
I realize that my requirements are somewhat specialized, but it's also one of the things that makes a Space Echo so cool to use with a console.
Anyway I AM going to look for a chance to demo one, as I enjoy being pleasantly surprised. Who knows? Maybe they did get it right?
FeTures for hipsters? John were getting old😥 |
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Post by hugostiglitz on Jul 12, 2018 8:20:03 GMT -6
Strymon delays are top notch. I found their El Capistan second to none and for sure the closest you can get to a real tape delay
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Post by mcirish on Jul 12, 2018 8:23:20 GMT -6
Most of the time I use H-delay from waves. Simple and good sounding. I have many others but that gets used the most for standard mono delays.
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Post by Blackdawg on Jul 12, 2018 8:46:30 GMT -6
I've been using PrimalTap more lately in place of Echoboy. I also love my Moog 500 series delay, probably should've got another while they were still around. Having midi control for it is nice when changing sessions. God damn I want a pair of those. Sound so good. Shame they stopped making them. |
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Post by indiehouse on Jul 12, 2018 8:54:21 GMT -6
Try the Catalinbread Belle Epoch Deluxe for Echplex stuff. It's rad. Strymon El Capistan rules, too. It can do mono in, stereo out.
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Post by joseph on Jul 12, 2018 10:51:01 GMT -6
Just wanted to mention that Strymon also do a delay (somewhat like an expanded Capistan) for eurorack and it can handle line level signals apparently.
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Post by notneeson on Jul 12, 2018 10:52:00 GMT -6
Try the Catalinbread Belle Epoch Deluxe for Echplex stuff. It's rad. Strymon El Capistan rules, too. It can do mono in, stereo out. Their EchoRec is really cool! Have wanted to try the Belle Epoch for a while. |
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Post by joseph on Jul 12, 2018 11:02:19 GMT -6
Try the Catalinbread Belle Epoch Deluxe for Echplex stuff. It's rad. Strymon El Capistan rules, too. It can do mono in, stereo out. Their EchoRec is really cool! Have wanted to try the Belle Epoch for a while. Just make sure you check out the Deluxe version because that has the EP-3 preamp. |
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 12, 2018 13:21:07 GMT -6
Thanks for the suggestion, but those plugins don't fit the jacks in my console or bays...
And I need hardware that can be taken to live gigs if necessary.
And, as I said, I neither want nor need "wow and flutter" or "noise". I just want something in a hardware format that behaves exactly like a Space Echo in excellent condition with fresh tape. Preferably an RE-555, which had XLR in and out and noise reduction.
Maybe some people think worn out equipment is charming. I don't.
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 12, 2018 14:00:42 GMT -6
Well, I spent about an hour or so on the Styrymon site and didn't see any mention of the issues that bother me. I suspect I'll have to go to a store that carries them and do a demo, which is a bit of a problem because I'm about a hour and a half drive out of SF now and none of the local shops out herre are very good.
They do have an impressive array of features including a buinch of stuff I essentially regard as "features" for hipsters that I nerither need nor want. Why would I want a "worn taper" control? Why would I want to adjust "tape crinkle"? Why the HELL would I want a "wow and flutter" control? I don't need to emulate a unit that's in need of service and only fools who never actually use tape professionally would want them. What I weant in a tape echo is not what it does when it's broken! I'd much rather that the put the r&d into getting the operation of the machine correct.
As to things I need, I don't even see an overload light at all. And obviously there's no meter.
As to the motor speed/head switching thing I suspect that the reason all the digital emulations get it wrong is something to do with the way the pedals use clock speed to set delay time. The easy was is to simply change the speed of the same clock for both time set by motor speed and time set by head spacing. I'm pretty sure that to get the emulation right would require separate clocks and possibly even a second stage of time processing. I'm also pretty sure that nobody's really thought much about it because it's something that guitar players wouldn't do - only engineers would even think of it. For a guitarist to do the same trick would require pedal control of head selection, and I've never heard of a tape echo that could do that.
I realize that my requirements are somewhat specialized, but it's also one of the things that makes a Space Echo so cool to use with a console.
Anyway I AM going to look for a chance to demo one, as I enjoy being pleasantly surprised. Who knows? Maybe they did get it right?
FeTures for hipsters? John were getting old😥 Probably so. I just don't understand why these people think that emulations of malfunctioning hardware are so desirable - especially when they can't even get the emulation of the working hardware right.
And yeah, "hipsters". You know, the kind of people who think mixing into a worn out cassette deck gives them "authentic tape sound". Or who go around overpaying for Japanese dimestore guitars that aren't worth five bucks - because they're "vintage".
I'm ranting. I didn't want to do that. All I want is a Space Echo hardware emulation that really works like a good Space Echo. Exactly.
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Post by christopher on Jul 12, 2018 14:05:40 GMT -6
I wonder if sometimes computer programmers can't imagine old analog gear ever sounding accurate? The digital snobbery is prevalent throughout Silicon Valley. Certainly some (e: maybe most) of them think analog is entirely outdated, and they only think that broken analog is audible. And that mental image I think does mess with ability to listen objectively to clean sounding analog gear just like any placebo effect on untrained ears. So it's easy to imagine a great programmer with untrained ears and prejudice behind some of the best plugins out there. But that's just a guess on my part.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2018 14:12:10 GMT -6
Probably for many reasons. You old guys hype the old gear, and then wonder why it gets popular with younger folks. These days most of the old gear is malfunctioning. Therefore maybe that's the sound younger people associate with it. Add to that the overall cultural fixation with nostalgia, and the fact that some artists have made entire careers out of 'tapey wobble' (Boards of Canada etc.) and I don't think it's that unreasonable for someone like Strymon to want to model all the grime, especially when it's controllable and you don't have to turn the "Age" or "Wow/Flutter" up from zero if you don't want to.
John, I will be interested to hear what you think after trying an El Capstan in person (I have never heard one in the flesh, but have heard lots of good things about it, but mostly from people who have never owned an original Space Echo or the like).
I kept my RE-201 in top condition (had 1km of double sided lubricated 8 track tape and made my own loops), regularly de-magnetised, cleaned the heads and capstan etc., and it still sounded nothing like any BBD or digital delay I have ever heard. The YT demos of the Capstan posted earlier sounded pretty good, but I still noticed a certain something missing when he was futzing with the controls. Think I could still hear some kind of unrealistic digital zippering or something, but would like to try one in person also.
Yes, I heard the Korg Stage Echos were supposed to be a step up from everything other than the Roland 501/55 as far as sound quality went.
My 201 sounded gnarly as hell but that's why I loved it, and regret letting it go.
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Post by Quint on Jul 12, 2018 14:17:12 GMT -6
Of the two Strymon units I own (Deco and El Cap), I really like the the El Cap but I LOVE the Deco. That pedal sounds very convincing. It's gotten to the point where I won't hardly play without it in the chain somewhere. It makes everything sound better.
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Post by joseph on Jul 13, 2018 9:05:56 GMT -6
Forgot to mention, the most realistic studio tapehead slapback delay I've heard in the box is u-he Satin. I think it sounds more realistic than the Strymon emulations, for what it's worth.
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Post by jazznoise on Jul 13, 2018 9:14:26 GMT -6
Forgot to mention, the most realistic studio tapehead slapback delay I've heard in the box is u-he Satin. I think it sounds more realistic than the Strymon emulations, for what it's worth. Satin is definitely the bast tape emulator out there to my mind - especially in terms of saturation. Does all the various Noise Reduction formats too. I use it all the time with the tape in bypass just for the Dolby A trick! |
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 13, 2018 10:45:46 GMT -6
Probably for many reasons. You old guys hype the old gear, and then wonder why it gets popular with younger folks. These days most of the old gear is malfunctioning. Therefore maybe that's the sound younger people associate with it. Add to that the overall cultural fixation with nostalgia, and the fact that some artists have made entire careers out of 'tapey wobble' (Boards of Canada etc.) and I don't think it's that unreasonable for someone like Strymon to want to model all the grime, especially when it's controllable and you don't have to turn the "Age" or "Wow/Flutter" up from zero if you don't want to. I'm not answering this. I have no desire to be penalized again for responding to ageist insults. I don't know any experienced people who "hype" broken gear. It's all the youngsters who don't know any better.
I'm planning on contacting Strymon and asking them if they're modeled the switching correctly. The problem I'm concerned with iks not a small detail - it has to do with whether the machine maintains pitch when switch from one head setting to another, or to put ity another way, can you use head switching to double or half delay time or switch from a single head to a multi-heasd setting without affecting the pitch of the echo.
It annoys me that these companies include (inaccurate) noise and wobble "features" when they can't even get the basic operation of the machine right.
Hopefully Strymon will have an answer.
To be honest, I don't much care it the box models the "tape tone" - if the thing has the tonal quality of my Roland SDE-1000s it would be fine with me. What I want is the FUNCTIONALITY.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 13, 2018 10:51:37 GMT -6
I know it's not a Space Echo, but I remember hearing some tracks posted by nofilterchuck that used the Eventide H9 as a reverb, and that sound was seriously good. Maybe there's a delay in there too?
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