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Post by ragan on Jun 25, 2018 17:12:21 GMT -6
Wow- Excuses abound! Sounds like the majority of 670 experience here is with broken pieces that were tech raped (i'll bite my tongue on those infamous LA/Nashville dips that like to badge their destruction) Having worked with one for almost 20 years that came new in the box from a German radio station - to call it "unimportant and overrated" makes me LOL. When working properly these units earn the money they fetch real quick. Pure gooey golden audio honey - Can someone tell me how 4 6386 and a pair of 12ax7s make this a "True to the original Fairchild audio path schematic"? Also- the pics look weird, chassis is half the size it should be (for a 'zero compromise' recreation) and the zero/bal knob in the picture is practically falling off, which is a little disconcerting. This is Stams most expensive 'piece' yet and no one bothered to tighten the knob down for the photo shoot.? The “unimportant and overrated” comment was a sarcastic response to Eric’s joke about rent and food.
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Post by Tbone81 on Jun 25, 2018 17:20:49 GMT -6
When working properly these units earn the money they fetch real quick. Pure gooey golden audio honey - You think buying an original FC would really pay for itself? Or are you being...figurative?
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 25, 2018 18:09:13 GMT -6
When working properly these units earn the money they fetch real quick. Pure gooey golden audio honey - You think buying an original FC would really pay for itself? Or are you being...figurative? The problem is someone could come back with a really snobby retort...the old, “if you’re really a professional that wants to use professional tools to do major label professional recordings...” And that annoys me, honestly. A $30k piece of equipment would take years to recoup for 90% of people working in music these days. I doubt a studio in Topeka is getting $2k a day for tracking. And that’s if we’re talking about a business...much less an individual. As a songwriter, there’s a point that I’ve got to consider how much I put into all of this. I have to be very strategic and efficient with my purchases. What piece of gear will best allow me to present what I’m doing and won’t make me have a day job in the process. That could be different for others that have different goals...but unless you’re a collector that is investing, single with no children and paid off cars - or have money to burn - I just don’t really get it.
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Post by Tbone81 on Jun 25, 2018 18:25:53 GMT -6
You think buying an original FC would really pay for itself? Or are you being...figurative? The problem is someone could come back with a really snobby retort...the old, “if you’re really a professional that wants to use professional tools to do major label professional recordings...” And that annoys me, honestly. A $30k piece of equipment would take years to recoup for 90% of people working in music these days. I doubt a studio in Topeka is getting $2k a day for tracking. And that’s if we’re talking about a business...much less an individual. As a songwriter, there’s a point that I’ve got to consider how much I put into all of this. I have to be very strategic and efficient with my purchases. What piece of gear will best allow me to present what I’m doing and won’t make me have a day job in the process. That could be different for others that have different goals...but unless you’re a collector that is investing, single with no children and paid off cars - or have money to burn - I just don’t really get it. I think you stated it better than I. Being strategic with purchases is the name of the game now days. I guess, like you, I don't get the disdain. I don't read Stams description as misleading, or pretending to be a 1:1 copy. I think most people get that.
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Post by lcr on Jun 25, 2018 18:26:48 GMT -6
stepped imput gain?
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Post by drbill on Jun 25, 2018 18:31:03 GMT -6
I've got no excuses. But I have managed to scrape through an entire career without needing one..... Just sayin'......
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Post by drbill on Jun 25, 2018 18:33:16 GMT -6
The problem is someone could come back with a really snobby retort...the old, “if you’re really a professional that wants to use professional tools to do major label professional recordings...” And that annoys me, honestly. A $30k piece of equipment would take years to recoup for 90% of people working in music these days. I doubt a studio in Topeka is getting $2k a day for tracking. And that’s if we’re talking about a business...much less an individual. As a songwriter, there’s a point that I’ve got to consider how much I put into all of this. I have to be very strategic and efficient with my purchases. What piece of gear will best allow me to present what I’m doing and won’t make me have a day job in the process. That could be different for others that have different goals...but unless you’re a collector that is investing, single with no children and paid off cars - or have money to burn - I just don’t really get it. I think you stated it better than I. Being strategic with purchases is the name of the game now days. I guess, like you, I don't get the disdain. I don't read Stams description as misleading, or pretending to be a 1:1 copy. I think most people get that. Well....he could have called it something else then... (I admit to a personal pet peeve of manufactures using certain iconic numbers / letters to make people think of the pieces of gear they cannot possibly afford.) OF COURSE they are expecting people to think it's a 670. It looks like one and is called a STAMchild. What are we supposed to think?
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Post by Tbone81 on Jun 25, 2018 19:20:59 GMT -6
I think you stated it better than I. Being strategic with purchases is the name of the game now days. I guess, like you, I don't get the disdain. I don't read Stams description as misleading, or pretending to be a 1:1 copy. I think most people get that. Well....he could have called it something else then... (I admit to a personal pet peeve of manufactures using certain iconic numbers / letters to make people think of the pieces of gear they cannot possibly afford.) OF COURSE they are expecting people to think it's a 670. It looks like one and is called a STAMchild. What are we supposed to think? Yeah I see your point. I guess I just assume that if you know what a Fairchild is, then you also know enough to judge this for what it is. I could easily be wrong in that assumption.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 25, 2018 19:33:42 GMT -6
I’m sure it’s frustrating to the manufacturers that work hard to design and hand wire and hand built discrete units. Also not taking any shortcuts in design, etc...but I wouldn’t think they’re competing for the same customers. There’s a certain cheaper manufacturer out there that I’ve bought product from and wasn’t impressed. But I don’t begrudge them for doing it. With all due respect, I just don’t think anyone thinks that this will deliver the same results as a real Fairchild...to me, the question is whether it delivers similar results to other stereo compressors in the $3000 range.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 25, 2018 19:37:12 GMT -6
Well....he could have called it something else then... (I admit to a personal pet peeve of manufactures using certain iconic numbers / letters to make people think of the pieces of gear they cannot possibly afford.) OF COURSE they are expecting people to think it's a 670. It looks like one and is called a STAMchild. What are we supposed to think? Yeah I see your point. I guess I just assume that if you know what a Fairchild is, then you also know enough to judge this for what it is. I could easily be wrong in that assumption. It’s supposed to “sound” like one...I guess I just assume most people with the money to buy it is well aware of the “get what you pay for” mantra. And I don’t mean that as an insult. I’ve gotten more than what I paid for out of the “73” circuit of stam’s...but I guess that’s not as hard to somewhat duplicate. Anyway, I for one, love that there’s this stuff out there.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 25, 2018 19:40:45 GMT -6
its the old splitting how authentic hairs argument. He has followed the original schematic but like all (?) modern cloners also looked for places to simplify the design but minimize sonic impact.
I don't for a moment think any of these clones are exactly like the original, but they are an affordable new product with warranty that get's you in to the sonic territory of the original (theoretically?).
So, we will wait for clips ect. and when we have some actual listing facts really be able to judge.
Early adopters always take a certain risk, but have the reward of the lesser price, earlier use etc..
A roughly $600 usd savings off retail will be well over a grand in savings landed in Canada: not a bad incentive.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,787
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Post by ericn on Jun 25, 2018 19:58:49 GMT -6
I’m sure it’s frustrating to the manufacturers that work hard to design and hand wire and hand built discrete units. Also not taking any shortcuts in design, etc...but I wouldn’t think they’re competing for the same customers. There’s a certain cheaper manufacturer out there that I’ve bought product from and wasn’t impressed. But I don’t begrudge them for doing it. With all due respect, I just don’t think anyone thinks that this will deliver the same results as a real Fairchild...to me, the question is whether it delivers similar results to other stereo compressors in the $3000 range. Yeah but somebody who’s only seen pictures and GUI’s is going to say it do what the Fairchild do, which is in fair to the Fairchild and somebody is going to buy this thing and forever think that’s what they should expect from a fair child and a bunch of purple people will be fairly childish about this fair mess.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jun 25, 2018 20:24:59 GMT -6
I admit to a personal pet peeve of manufactures using certain iconic numbers / letters to make people think of the pieces of gear they cannot possibly afford. How are those "A" and "N" mojo amps? 😜
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Post by matt@IAA on Jun 25, 2018 20:27:24 GMT -6
I admit to a personal pet peeve of manufactures using certain iconic numbers / letters to make people think of the pieces of gear they cannot possibly afford. How are those "A" and "N" mojo amps? 😜 Shots fired!
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 25, 2018 20:38:16 GMT -6
I admit to a personal pet peeve of manufactures using certain iconic numbers / letters to make people think of the pieces of gear they cannot possibly afford. How are those "A" and "N" mojo amps? 😜 Snap !
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 25, 2018 20:38:52 GMT -6
I’m putting on the popcorn !
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,787
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Post by ericn on Jun 25, 2018 20:51:28 GMT -6
I admit to a personal pet peeve of manufactures using certain iconic numbers / letters to make people think of the pieces of gear they cannot possibly afford. How are those "A" and "N" mojo amps? 😜 No he didn’t 😎😁
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Post by Coil Audio on Jun 25, 2018 21:38:49 GMT -6
I understood the previous context and sarcasm. Honestly, This is just a bit too cartoonish to not have a bit of a chuckle. Stam has obviously proven that he can build gear that people enjoy. Fact. Would you or anyone else on here NOT buy just a regular ol' Stam Stereo Tube Limiter for the price advertised? It could be even cheaper if one didnt have to 'nail' the look of a fairchild no? Neves, SSL Comps, LA2As, pultec Eqs - these are all somewhat simple designs that can take some variation in parts and still be quite decent/usable sounding circuits for little money. Great! However, A fairchild of any maintenance pedigree is not like those circuits AT ALL. It either does its thing or it doesn't. This isnt 'splitting hair' stuff either - these are differences anyone could distinguish. There is a snotty old guy saying that applies here - "You can make a Lexus look like a Ferrari, but its still a Lexus". Now, Will it perform as well as others in that price range? Id say it has some tall hurdles to clear - (see comment below)
Curious about the Blackbird units you used John. We'll be there later this week - you recall which room? Assuming it wasnt in a mobile rack - . You'd be surprised how many major studios have working fairchilds that sound lacking due to a tech swapping out critical paper & oil caps with modern orange drops in the signal path or worse. We know another person that actually collects and rents these and most of those were also tech mangled. People still rent them as they 'work' fine and look cool and you can say "hey man! we totally used a Fairchild on our record!" - but its a far cry from what it should be. I'll just say this - ive heard more screwed up 670s than good ones and its usually due to one or all of these being replaced or modified - Tubes/Transformers/Caps/PSU etc. sidenote: Narma admitted in the last 20 years or so that he would of done some things different in the PSU as the parts available now exceed the specs and life of what he had available to him at that time - we're talking mostly electrolytic caps and power stuff that you SHOULD replace in most vintage equipment - not the critical signal path stuff. If someone were to base a 'clone' or 'homage' off of one of these sub-par working units - the end results would be further compromised. eek
Do i think 660s or 670s are expensive and overpriced? - of course they are! So are Ferraris! I dont personally own one, and if i did, i wouldn't be here! BUT - they do sound like 'the money' when working as intended - and i guess thats what i really meant. When you break it down into just parts (which we do every 6 months or so - LOL) - Stock NOS with true zero compromise you are looking at roughly 10k or more and then you have to build it. That is us pulling from every nook and cranny around the globe we know about. Hell - a Drip kitty can't even build a Drip 670 kit without dropping $4k or so on new JJs and modern iron - the 6386 bill alone is $900 and those Drips sound terrible - i hate to be that guy but they do. I wouldn't stick my worst enemies mix thru it!. Ok maybe i would -Anyway, in the end it boils down to too much money for what you end up with. Many have tried - it just isnt a hackable design.
In the spirit of championing the budgetary constraints of the modern working music producer- a used late 90's Manley Vari-mu goes for around $2500 and Manley will Tbar mod and calibrate it at the factory for another $500 or so. I consider this the actual 'poormans fairchild' as you can get jiggy with -8 to-10db of compression before it even gets close to dismantling and it does what a properly built vari-mu tube compressor should do - GET BIGGER and SOUND BETTER the more you plunge into it. Used on countless recordings you know and love, known to work for 20+ years and is well supported. Just sayin'....
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Post by drbill on Jun 25, 2018 21:51:43 GMT -6
I admit to a personal pet peeve of manufactures using certain iconic numbers / letters to make people think of the pieces of gear they cannot possibly afford. How are those "A" and "N" mojo amps? 😜 Oh maaaaan, you got me didn't cha!!! If you bought one you'd know - like the hundreds of people who have ponied up and love them. Wouldn't you? LOL They are fine. And not named or numbered beyond a "tip of the hat" to who inspired them. They are ABSOLUTELY not a "clone" (and never touted as one) of either a 1073 or 312. And they are not called the NeveBullet or 312Bullet.
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Post by hadaja on Jun 25, 2018 22:59:10 GMT -6
Dont forget all those people who sign up for one of these will mostly likely get a deluxe upgrade option somewhere near the reported completion time, if you just get this much better transformer or this much better NOS Tubes and these vintage oil capacities, or this sturdy SKB case blah blah for whatever $$$$ extra it will sound even more like the original than was even originally cited. Sorry but i wish you guys well who buys one. Those who have the spare coin will do it and the others like me will just continue to dream- or visit someone who did do it. I thought i would also add my stinky opinion here as well.
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Post by javamad on Jun 25, 2018 23:55:46 GMT -6
Well, this thread has kinda sucked the fun out of buying clones :-)
I’d rather wait to hear how close we get. Based off Stam’s track record I am confident it will be close and very useful -which is actually what its all about for me. I have BAE and Chandler stuff (and a Stam SSL) and I don’t spend my day wondering how close it all gets to the original, I just put the in the signal chain and enjoy :-)
I am obviously the exact market segment for clone products and they give me what I’m looking for right now (value for money and some analog vibe) but I don’t hunt down threads about real vintage gear and start raining on their parade saying they are foolish to spend so much just to put a sample-blended kit drum bus through it :-)
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 26, 2018 3:20:39 GMT -6
@coil I think you may be misinterpreting my “splitting hairs” comment, because I actually agree with you! What drives me round the bend, is the argument that the clones will be just like the original when differences have been made? I would just rather people specify the differences and be frank about it. Not as sexy to say clone X is derived from famous circuit Y, but it would be less disingenuous ? Then, I’d like to hear clips, so we can judge for ourselves how close the clone is and if we like the product? I think Stam plays this reasonably well, as let’s be frank, people who buy at the low price if they sell it used, typically do so at a higher price, as the retail price is now higher: not exactly a zero sum gain,, but actually a very low risk trial: just depends, if you want to play that game and this SA-670 is like twice to three times Josh’s previous intro prices, so stakes are a little higher, but you got to pay to play ?
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Post by Ward on Jun 26, 2018 4:04:36 GMT -6
Wow- Excuses abound! Sounds like the majority of 670 experience here is with broken pieces that were tech raped (i'll bite my tongue on those infamous LA/Nashville dips that like to badge their destruction) Having worked with one for almost 20 years that came new in the box from a German radio station - to call it "unimportant and overrated" makes me LOL. When working properly these units earn the money they fetch real quick. Pure gooey golden audio honey - Can someone tell me how 4 6386 and a pair of 12ax7s make this a "True to the original Fairchild audio path schematic"? Also- the pics look weird, chassis is half the size it should be (for a 'zero compromise' recreation) and the zero/bal knob in the picture is practically falling off, which is a little disconcerting. This is Stams most expensive 'piece' yet and no one bothered to tighten the knob down for the photo shoot.? And my limited experiences with them were all at Blackbird. Don't think those are broken. Yes!!! And deemed essential to Martina McBride's vocal capture . . . perhaps one of the few devices that can tame her extraordinary dynamic range!!
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Post by stam on Jun 26, 2018 6:02:11 GMT -6
Dont forget all those people who sign up for one of these will mostly likely get a deluxe upgrade option somewhere near the reported completion time, if you just get this much better transformer or this much better NOS Tubes and these vintage oil capacities, or this sturdy SKB case blah blah for whatever $$$$ extra it will sound even more like the original than was even originally cited. Sorry but i wish you guys well who buys one. Those who have the spare coin will do it and the others like me will just continue to dream- or visit someone who did do it. I thought i would also add my stinky opinion here as well. That only happened on the Pultec due to the development of new transformer by Cinemag with the original lamination and the SA67 out of all products, and I have many. So no, that will not happen, I have made 3 Fairchild designs, this, the original and another other hybrid. You have to be extremely meticulous to pull this one off at this price and we have been. We offer a 30 day money back guarantee, shipping included to anybody anyways so I don't see the problem here. Either way, several companies offer 3 or more type of products per model (producer's series, studio series, vintage series, etc..), so do guitar makers etc.., so I don't see any problem with that and if I ever find a new part that I feel get's the job done even better then I will always offer it This is normally offered at no extra charge, like we did with the boost on the Pultec which added more cost and if we add a charge it is just the part, not for us to profit more.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Jun 26, 2018 7:41:26 GMT -6
Josh, did you actually have a good working order 670 available to test yours side by side?
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