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Post by bram on Jun 4, 2018 1:42:26 GMT -6
Hey RGO,
I wish I would never have to deal with a situation like this, but I guess it's fortunate this is happening when not a lot of money is involved. I'm going to preface this post by saying I know very little about music business law.
10 years ago I was a bassist in a post-rock band in college. We were a 4 piece with 2 guitarists, a drummer, and myself on bass. We all contributed to the songwriting process, for example I would bring in a bass melody and hook, and the rest of the song would be developed around it. It was a very collaborative writing process so it's hard to say anyone contributed more or less to any particular song.
Fast forward to the present, the guitarist, who for all intents and purposes considered himself the owner of the band/brand (and continues to release music under the same name to this day) decided to reproduce and record the songs we wrote back then, by recreating them based off of transcribing by ear, low-quality bar show recordings that we played together as a group.
Without getting into great detail, the project began as a "10 year reunion" idea, hoping to get all of the members back together to record. I was the only one who was able to contribute to the recreation, and I programmed via notation software a few songs worth of drums and my own bass lines. It was the plan that we would be recording these at my studio, but due to schedule conflicts and deadlines, the guitarist decided to take all of the work, including my transcribed parts, learning to play them on his own, and then recording, producing, and mixing them himself.
When I learned that he was taking over the whole project I brought up the songwriting credits and distribution rights conversation. It didn't go over very well. This was his [anonymized] response:
None of that sits right with me. My personal feelings aside, his claims that the songs were legally written by the [Band] and thus belong to him because he is the only official member of the band don't seem rooted in anything legally concrete - but I don't know enough about the legality of such things to dispute it. There was never any written (or verbal) agreement that songs belong to the [Band], or that we would forfeit our rights to the music if we moved on with our lives. The songs haven't been mixed yet, the album isn't scheduled for release until August. As far as I know, the songs are not licensed on BMI or ASCAP.
Could some of you more learned folks on the matter here let me know where I stand? This isn't an album that's going to be making a lot of dough, so it's more about giving credit where credit is due. If I'm owed a % of the sales then that's a bonus, but I want to make sure the rest of the band isn't also getting disrespected here. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I'm not replying to the guitarist's previous email until I better understand the situation.
Thanks guys, I'm really hoping for a graceful resolution to this.
-B
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 4, 2018 12:20:37 GMT -6
Hey RGO, I wish I would never have to deal with a situation like this, but I guess it's fortunate this is happening when not a lot of money is involved. I'm going to preface this post by saying I know very little about music business law. 10 years ago I was a bassist in a post-rock band in college. We were a 4 piece with 2 guitarists, a drummer, and myself on bass. We all contributed to the songwriting process, for example I would bring in a bass melody and hook, and the rest of the song would be developed around it. It was a very collaborative writing process so it's hard to say anyone contributed more or less to any particular song. Fast forward to the present, the guitarist, who for all intents and purposes considered himself the owner of the band/brand (and continues to release music under the same name to this day) decided to reproduce and record the songs we wrote back then, by recreating them based off of transcribing by ear, low-quality bar show recordings that we played together as a group. Without getting into great detail, the project began as a "10 year reunion" idea, hoping to get all of the members back together to record. I was the only one who was able to contribute to the recreation, and I programmed via notation software a few songs worth of drums and my own bass lines. It was the plan that we would be recording these at my studio, but due to schedule conflicts and deadlines, the guitarist decided to take all of the work, including my transcribed parts, learning to play them on his own, and then recording, producing, and mixing them himself. When I learned that he was taking over the whole project I brought up the songwriting credits and distribution rights conversation. It didn't go over very well. This was his [anonymized] response: None of that sits right with me. My personal feelings aside, his claims that the songs were legally written by the [Band] and thus belong to him because he is the only official member of the band don't seem rooted in anything legally concrete - but I don't know enough about the legality of such things to dispute it. There was never any written (or verbal) agreement that songs belong to the [Band], or that we would forfeit our rights to the music if we moved on with our lives. The songs haven't been mixed yet, the album isn't scheduled for release until August. As far as I know, the songs are not licensed on BMI or ASCAP. Could some of you more learned folks on the matter here let me know where I stand? This isn't an album that's going to be making a lot of dough, so it's more about giving credit where credit is due. If I'm owed a % of the sales then that's a bonus, but I want to make sure the rest of the band isn't also getting disrespected here. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I'm not replying to the guitarist's previous email until I better understand the situation. Thanks guys, I'm really hoping for a graceful resolution to this. -B You're not going to like this, but in my opinion a stern letter from a proper music lawyer is called for. If you don't have representation I can give you the name of my guy in SF. His rates are generally reasonable.
You can't usurp somebody's songwriting credit simply because they left the band. This is why you should always file formal copyright papers on all compositions. The guy is being a dick.
Afaik simple arrangement parts are probably not subject to copyright (except that he appears to have attributed all writing to the band, collectively), but initial song ideas, melodies, etc. certainly are.
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Post by Tbone81 on Jun 4, 2018 12:36:37 GMT -6
I 2nd what John said except I would say a strong but diplomatic letter from yourself should come first. Something along the lines of "can you elaborate? My understanding is that singewriting credit is independent of band membership". Then purpose your solution. If that doesn't work a letter from an attorney will.
Also, just to be clear, songwriting credit/ownership is a totally separate thing from ownership of a band name, brand, trademark etc. For example, there are a great many people who have written songs for other peoples bands that have no ownership stake in the band itself, make sense?
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Post by bram on Jun 4, 2018 14:50:49 GMT -6
Thanks for your input John and Tbone. I'm certainly interested in getting in touch with your guy, John (I'll send a PM). I agree that an educated and level headed response from myself before sending the stern legalese letter fits more with my character and intention. I'm treating this experience as a wake up call and low-stakes learning experience - would be wise to consult with someone at this juncture to make sure my contracts are solid for actual clients moving forward as the studio business is picking up.
cheers
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 4, 2018 23:35:51 GMT -6
Thanks for your input John and Tbone. I'm certainly interested in getting in touch with your guy, John (I'll send a PM). I agree that an educated and level headed response from myself before sending the stern legalese letter fits more with my character and intention. I'm treating this experience as a wake up call and low-stakes learning experience - would be wise to consult with someone at this juncture to make sure my contracts are solid for actual clients moving forward as the studio business is picking up. cheers PM received and answered. Apologies for the typos, I hit "send" before proofreading and my typing is sloppy. |
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Post by donr on Jun 5, 2018 22:59:02 GMT -6
Songwriting is independent of band membership. It's likely inconsequential in terms of dollars, but proper credit is important and ethical. You never know where or when something you created is going to pop. A negotiation I agree is the way to go. He can't be starry-eyed about the riches, can he? Tell him he can keep the publishing side for his trouble, or don't if you want to retain that. The guy is doing all the effort to release the song and recording after all. But you should get your 20% or whatever for song credits.
Or copyright the songs yourself. I bet he hasn't done it yet.
I wouldn't be incurring lawyer's hourly fees on this yet. |
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Post by jeromemason on Jun 6, 2018 14:45:44 GMT -6
Can you still do the "poor mans copyright" where you send charts and lyrics to yourself in the mail? Anyone heard about that one? A producer I worked for way back when, he'd have artists do that after writing a song until they could file it properly.....
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jun 6, 2018 14:53:01 GMT -6
"Poor mans copyright" has always been B.S. because it's trivial to prove the ease of cheating.
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Post by Tbone81 on Jun 6, 2018 16:14:57 GMT -6
Can you still do the "poor mans copyright" where you send charts and lyrics to yourself in the mail? Anyone heard about that one? A producer I worked for way back when, he'd have artists do that after writing a song until they could file it properly..... There's a lot of misunderstanding regarding methods like this. First, for anyone reading this, a copyright is intellectual property. The moment you write/create a song you own the the copyright. Now if that copyright is ever disputed you need a way to prove that it's your original work. That's where copyright registration comes in. When you register a copyright it's logged with the library of congress for use in any future legal dispute. It's a way of verifying that you had claim to the copyright at the time of registration. However, it doesn't mean that you can't still be proven wrong, or in violation of someone's else's intellectual property. For example, you could have knowingly ripped off someone else's song and registered it as your own. Make sense? |
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 7, 2018 13:11:59 GMT -6
Can you still do the "poor mans copyright" where you send charts and lyrics to yourself in the mail? Anyone heard about that one? A producer I worked for way back when, he'd have artists do that after writing a song until they could file it properly..... You can, but it's kind of dumb. You can't really claim back royalties with that and there's always the danger of losing your documentation. I have a friend who wrote a bunch of songs in the '70s that he "protected" by that method. When I contacted him about covering some of them about 6-7 years ago he told me that he no longer knew where his documentation was and didn't remember the lyrics. He offered me half ownership if I could reconstruct them because I remembered them better than he did. So far I've done three and filed proper copyright papers and BMI registration listing the two of us. There's one more that I still haven't been able to get right. |
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Post by bram on Jun 10, 2018 13:19:17 GMT -6
Just seeing the new responses here. Thanks for your continued input everyone. I consulted an entertainment lawyer and had him write an "opinion" letter essentially educating both sides and suggesting a fair and ethical resolution to the conflict. As some of you mentioned in this thread, the lawyer confirmed that the other member is misinformed about his legal claims and wouldn't have a fighting leg to stand on if things were to escalate.
I'm being careful and taking my time writing the next email to the ex-bandmate in question, because when I reached out to the other members the response I got back was a hesitancy to get involved: "I can't remember if you've ever confronted [guitarist] in the past, but's it's an ordeal. A terrifying ordeal."
So I'm anticipating the response of a spoiled child. If he does choose to fight this any further, I'll have to drop the matter for financial reasons.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 11, 2018 18:05:44 GMT -6
First of all, this guy needs his ass kicked.
Secondly, if I were you, I would sign up with your PRO of choice (ASCAP, BMI, SESAC) and register the song with the proper splits. That would solve the problem post haste.
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Post by yotonic on Jun 11, 2018 18:53:31 GMT -6
^ Exactly... No lawyer needed. Just register the song. Let him pay for a lawyer... LOL
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 12, 2018 0:18:31 GMT -6
First of all, this guy needs his ass kicked. Secondly, if I were you, I would sign up with your PRO of choice (ASCAP, BMI, SESAC) and register the song with the proper splits. That would solve the problem post haste. But don't the pros require copyright registration first? |
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Post by bram on Jul 31, 2018 14:15:09 GMT -6
Update on the story:
A month ago I sent an email to the bandmate that included a legal (advice) letter from the entertainment lawyer stating where the law stands. Didn't hear anything back for a month so I pinged him again this week and he called me back.
We had an easy conversation and he's agreed to properly credit all involved.
Thanks everyone for your support! Happy to say I can put this to rest.
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 31, 2018 14:47:21 GMT -6
Update on the story: A month ago I sent an email to the bandmate that included a legal (advice) letter from the entertainment lawyer stating where the law stands. Didn't hear anything back for a month so I pinged him again this week and he called me back. We had an easy conversation and he's agreed to properly credit all involved. Thanks everyone for your support! Happy to say I can put this to rest. Great news! Barry does write a good letter... |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 31, 2018 16:05:41 GMT -6
Update on the story: A month ago I sent an email to the bandmate that included a legal (advice) letter from the entertainment lawyer stating where the law stands. Didn't hear anything back for a month so I pinged him again this week and he called me back. We had an easy conversation and he's agreed to properly credit all involved. Thanks everyone for your support! Happy to say I can put this to rest. Still needs his ass kicked. BTW - screw going with SESAC. |
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Post by yotonic on Jul 31, 2018 18:59:06 GMT -6
Definitely screw SESAC. Just a matter of time before these dinosaurs are obsolete. I own a venue and I would rather pay royalties to the artists directly at settlement and let them pay the rights organizations dues or a fee. The money rarely gets to the artists, like so many things in our economy it is rigged for the corporate interests with the most wealth and power.
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 31, 2018 19:37:39 GMT -6
Definitely screw SESAC. Just a matter of time before these dinosaurs are obsolete. I own a venue and I would rather pay royalties to the artists directly at settlement and let them pay the rights organizations dues or a fee. The money rarely gets to the artists, like so many things in our economy it is rigged for the corporate interests with the most wealth and power. That's all very well, but as you and I both know having venues pay artists direrctly would initiate a clusterfuck that would play out against artists and writers. How many artists can afford a bank of lawyers to chase payments from venues? I can barely afford the one music lawyer I've got!
One thing you need to be aware of is what the real world financial realities are for chasing billing and litigation.
Thatr, being said, as I work my way through the text of the bill I am becoming less favorable to SESAC's position, although I'm not yet totally decided, as I'm not finished.
The one thing that I've concluded is that NONE of the articles in the "popular" music press have been 100% accurate or unbiased. I need to check what Chris Castle has to say - he's a copyright lawyer and activist who is firmly on the side of artists and writers. He's also very astute. But I still need to finish working my way through the text of the bill, and, hopefully, the proposed amendment if attached. If it isn't attached I'll need another link.
Again, my own registry is BMI, not SESAC.
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Post by yotonic on Jul 31, 2018 23:21:42 GMT -6
It's clear we are talking about entirely different things. I don't know any "original artists" who are touring right now that need lawyers to get paid by The Fillmore, House of Blues, and other established venues. Artists have no problem collecting all sorts of expenses and fees at settlement while touring, that's what their Tour Manager is there for. And most pro venues already have a line item in their accounting for PROs fees. My point is that BMI and ASCAP have convoluted formulas for how royalties are distributed that benefit the top 10%of recording artists. There are companies out there working on new models and someday there will be a better and more equitable solution for all artists.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 1, 2018 9:11:26 GMT -6
It's clear we are talking about entirely different things. I don't know any "original artists" who are touring right now that need lawyers to get paid by The Fillmore, House of Blues, and other established venues. Artists have no problem collecting all sorts of expenses and fees at settlement while touring, that's what their Tour Manager is there for. And most pro venues already have a line item in their accounting for PROs fees. My point is that BMI and ASCAP have convoluted formulas for how royalties are distributed that benefit the top 10%of recording artists. There are companies out there working on new models and someday there will be a better and more equitable solution for all artists. In this case I believe we are. I wasn't referring to getting paid by the venue for the gig itself. I was referring to the fact (overlooked by many) that you are entitled to performance royalties through your PRO for your songs, as are the writers of any covers you might do. This is supposed to come out of the general licensing fees paid by the venue to the PROs, and depend on songlists submitted by the artist to the PRO(s). Most artists that even bother with the paperwork often only submit lists of their own material that was performed, but technically any writer whose material was performed at the gig is entitled to some royalty - but chasing such royalties is problematic in the case of covers.
I really don't know the finer details of this but I know that it exists, and can provide an additional small revenue stream for those who bother doing the paperwork for their compositions played at their gigs.
Oh, fun - more paperwork!
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