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Post by svart on Feb 3, 2014 13:36:48 GMT -6
The Apex 460 is already really close to the C12 and 251. Just swapping a couple wires and you are already mostly there. Reduce the 100nF output caps to 1nF(or remove them) and put in a 12AT7 or 12AY7 and put in an edge terminated capsule and you have a C12 clone. Add a couple more parts for a 251. No need to change transformers to expensive things. Changing the output caps fixes the transformer overshoot, and changing the capsule fixes the pre-hyped K67 capsule issue. I might try that for a friend that needs a cheaper price point microphone. But I went through all that in my 2 year process, and there's a lot more to it than that. There is some actual magic in the verbatim C12 circuit, the right tube, better transformer and capsule, etc. It's not just academic. I went the extra mile, and I was rewarded for it in the end. I don't know if I have really sensitive ears or what, but these little changes made huge differences in the response of the mics. PS - the stock mic is closer to a 251 or a C24 than a C12, due to the cathode bias of the preamp tube. Getting a "251" going should be simpler since I won't need to modify the power supply as much. But yes, the APEX 460 is the perfect base for a C12, C24, or 250/251 type of build due to the body and headbasket size, and the nearness of the stock circuit. Well, the 251 is a little bigger, I don't think there's a Chinese equivalent body style, yet. Keep in mind, the order of which you do these things also makes a difference. It's well known that the cathode follower has trouble driving the output transformer, so subbing in a lower gain, but higher drive tube works wonders, but you'd never know it if you changed the transformer first. You'd also never know that the transformer in the 460 is actually a VERY linear transformer if you removed it before changing the RF rejection caps. The other transformers might not be as susceptible to LC tank circuit formation with those cap values, which is why you might be fooled into thinking you made an upgrade, because you overcame a problem in the design by changing a different part than what was really the offending part. I guess what I'm saying is that when you go into a modification thinking you are making upgrades, it's of little relevance if you made actual measurable upgrades, your mind will try to rationalize the money you spent by "hearing" the difference. It's called "confirmation bias". You heard what you thought you would hear to begin with. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Feb 3, 2014 14:36:44 GMT -6
I shot out head to head, an apex 460 with all the mods mentioned above, done by one of the top names in the modding industry, against the matador C12 with the Tim Campbell capsule, the C12 clone killed it blind over and over again, it was not even close..
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Post by tonycamphd on Feb 3, 2014 14:53:12 GMT -6
Come check out my Jim William's modded SC 200, u can CLEARLY hear a whopping amount of "conformation bias"as your ears lie to u 8)
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Post by svart on Feb 3, 2014 15:54:35 GMT -6
And therein is the confirmation bias!  You shot out your own mic against one you already believed to be inferior (thus the reasoning behind doing all the mods to the other one before shooting it out).. Bingo. Wouldn't stand up in court or as a presentation in a room full of VPs. And I have to be honest and finally say out loud, "top names in the modding industry" are just guys who lurk on forums stealing the work of others. pretty much all of them started out that way and continue to make a living on what people like myself have put online for people to learn from. I have always, and will always produce free information for those who wish to learn from, but I'm still pissed that some take those things and make money from it. |
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Post by Guitar on Feb 3, 2014 16:06:43 GMT -6
I just want to add to my previous post. Starting out with the Apex parts, doing the mods you said, puts it into "Avantone" zone. Going further from there with a CEK-12 and T14/1 Peluso, you can get more into the "Peluso" or maybe "Advanced Audio" zone. But going even further from there with accurate circuits, and perhaps the finest capsules and accessories, tubes, you get more into "Flea" territory or whatever. There is a qualitative difference to each step along the way, I mention brands and price ranges to try to illustrate this, since they are familiar.
By the way, swapping the capsule and transformer create some massive changes, those are not subtle. Maybe changing tube type, also. Again, even the smaller changes were quite noticeable.
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Post by jeromemason on Feb 3, 2014 16:08:15 GMT -6
Just add more low ESR bulk capacitance inside the mic. That'll stop the current starvation you talk about, Tony. But then again, some people like the sound of tube compression, which is nothing more than current starvation inside the bottle itself.. Anyway, the PSU is one area that might need more bulk cap, but then people also run that through hella long 7 pin XLR cables to the mics which only act as resistance, nullifying a good deal of adding bulk cap to the PSU. This is why it's probably more important in the mic than in the PSU. It's the same principle that lead to the hatred of opamps. long thin power traces to opamps which lack adequate decoupling make current starvation the modus-operandi for most consumer audio gear and thus people have associated that sound with opamps. Another good test is to hook up the mic and then jack the preamp up all the way.. Do you hear 120hz buzz? If not, then chances are you have plenty of bulk cap in the PSU. So now, you might just add some large ceramic or plastic caps in the mic in parallel with the bulk electrolytic caps for some theoretically faster current supplementation. I have to do better, on this forum, at trying to dispel the notion that caps are some kind of super audio device. We are just moving charge around. Once you get to the point where charge-in and charge-out are almost equal, then you have sufficient capacitance and the "sound" of caps is negligible. Such good info in this post..... you know your electronics man, that's for sure. How do you feel about Elna's? Last time I did a mod on some HS80's I was checking the ESR of the Elna's to the FM Panasonic's and they were actually lower. Also, just reading the description of what Elna does inside the actual cap is really intriguing. The use of hemp along with the paper they claim leads to a smoother sound. I know for me, when I swapped all the caps out in the HS80's with Elna's and Wima's the high end was much much more smooth, although, I'm not sure why, but I did lose a small about of sub freq response, I think this has to do with the placement of the Wima's. I need to open them back up and try a different value Wima and see if it gives me back some of the sub juice. Not that I really mind, I've got a pair of PSI's that give me plenty of sub freq's and when I switch over to my HS80's you can get a good contrast on how your lowend is holding up in a different perspective, so I may just keep them like they are. I did a mix just on them after I did the cap swap, the lowend translation was very good, so maybe it's not an issue. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Feb 3, 2014 19:52:37 GMT -6
And therein is the confirmation bias! You shot out your own mic against one you already believed to be inferior (thus the reasoning behind doing all the mods to the other one before shooting it out).. Bingo. Wouldn't stand up in court or as a presentation in a room full of VPs. And I have to be honest and finally say out loud, "top names in the modding industry" are just guys who lurk on forums stealing the work of others. pretty much all of them started out that way and continue to make a living on what people like myself have put online for people to learn from. I have always, and will always produce free information for those who wish to learn from, but I'm still pissed that some take those things and make money from it. Conformation bias? Like reading a post and leaving out key words to your understanding, in order to support ur insistent position?? like the part where I said "blind" comparison between the 2 mics, then u go on to condescendingly suggest someone's ears aren't capable of hearing a difference, maybe because ur ears can't? Then essentially calling very respectable people (some members on this forum like Williams and Stieger) lurking thieves??? Seriously? Check urself man, ur not the authority, nor am I, absolutism is for 16 year old girls, I've had excellent results with DIY and mods, who are u to tell me otherwise?? I trust my ears way before anyone's mouth, I'm not capable of doing what Jim did to my rig, but really, u would have to have rocks in ur ears not be able to hear the diff in my Jim Williams modded delta 200, that's not thievery, it's appreciated value in my book, and tangibly real. I generally like ur posts, but I find this last one to be obtuse and offensive svart |
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 3, 2014 20:18:03 GMT -6
Lets just agree to disagree, guys...
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Post by svart on Feb 3, 2014 20:20:08 GMT -6
Well, unfortunately I didn't mean it as offensive, so I apologize. I didn't intend to insinuate that you have problems hearing, it's just that I've been in the very same position as you and I learned my lesson. You can't get something for nothing, and modding is absolutely without a doubt something that is more hype than substance.
And I was a little hasty and harsh with the modder comment, but it's no less truthful. I can count about 6 modders and product folks who have taken things I, or others have done as NOT-FOR-PROFIT ideas/projects and it ended up in a for-profit business. It's the biggest reason I quit GroupDIY, when it became about clawing money out of people and using them for idea mining rather than learning.
So yes, I'm jaded, but I suppose it's my fault for putting ideas online and expecting others to be upstanding individuals. And for the record, no JW and Steiger aren't even remotely on my list. I won't say any more than this because I don't care to start a mud slinging fest here.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2014 22:17:42 GMT -6
Puh,
hot in here, can someone open the window?
My perception since the old recording.org's TechTalk, later GDIY was, that the not-for-profit learning-doing-sharing-researching DIY community brought knowledge and expertise openly to the world, and there were quite some lurkers that a) started a business out of other peoples work or b) were a business and ripped off things for their product portfolio. In pretty unethic ways sometimes!
This is fact.
Jim Williams and Jeff Steiger can not be mistaken to belong to one of these categories.
Modding with ultra-fast opamps for example, doing very good own versions of API-inspired devices and developing 51x (together with Volker) as an open 500 compatible extended standard are developments on their own, and on the other hand, i could also name half a dozen businesses immediately, that have a completely different (low) ethic standard and fit the description of svart undoubtly...but i won't...
...because i cooled down....
OK, i shut the window again. Totally forgot it is fucking cold winter.....
;-)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2014 22:29:59 GMT -6
PS:
I can totally understand that people that contributed much to a community are pissed off, if they see others making money, a real business, out of work that is explicitly marked "for non-commercial use only".
This is somehow like selling GNU software after removing all license headers from the source code.
Not - cool - at - all.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2014 23:17:03 GMT -6
I even remember a case, where someone even tried to rip off an actually "active" and pricey boutique design, that we analyzed and discussed in a closed community room under strictly "private", confidential, NDA-like terms for research and learning purposes only.
Well, sometimes you invite the wrong guy - even in a small community...and things like this have to make you angry if you have a minimum of an ethic standard,..
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You shot out your own mic against one you already believed to be inferior (thus the reasoning behind doing all the mods to the other one before shooting it out).. Bingo. Wouldn't stand up in court or as a presentation in a room full of VPs. 
