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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 29, 2018 12:43:28 GMT -6
Was just perusing the itunes chart and comparing a song I just mixed and mastered up to -10 LUFS at peak...and the itunes song is still dramatically louder. I thought all these streaming services and itunes were supposedly not louder than -14 LUFS? Makes me want to crank my shit up to -8...
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 29, 2018 13:22:14 GMT -6
Not entirely sure on this..
But couldn't it be because the file you compared it too was below itunes loudness standards so itunes brought up the level? If the song was mastered and compressed fairly well but below their loudness and then they turned it up, it would seem a lot louder than other tracks?
Just a thought. I've only done light reading on this and seem to recall that that would be the case but i also remember youtube was the example not itunes..
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Post by matt on Mar 29, 2018 13:35:14 GMT -6
Interested in this, as well. If you don't activate "Sound Check" in Preferences/Playback Preferences, there is a lot of level variance between song/artist/time period. As you might expect, there can be a big difference in level if re-mastering has been done to older tracks. But sometimes not. It's confusing, and seems contrary to the guideline of -16 LUFS.
Perhaps the -16 LUFS spec is what iTunes does to a track level with Sound Check enabled. Looking into it.
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 29, 2018 13:37:37 GMT -6
Interested in this, as well. If you don't activate "Sound Check" in Preferences/Playback Preferences, there is a lot of level variance between song/artist/time period. As you might expect, there can be a big difference in level if re-mastering has been done to older tracks. But sometimes not. It's confusing, and seems contrary to the guideline of -16 LUFS. Perhaps the -16 LUFS spec is what iTunes does to a track level with Sound Check enabled. Looking into it. With sound check on it is -16 LUFS. With it off....I have no idea. |
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Post by matt on Mar 29, 2018 13:56:11 GMT -6
Perhaps the -16 LUFS spec is what iTunes does to a track level with Sound Check enabled With sound check on it is -16 LUFS. With it off....I have no idea. So if the typical iTunes user (like me) listens with Sound Check off, they get whatever the artist mastered to, level-wise? Sure seems like it. My playlists are numerous and cut across all genres/time periods, and the difference in level is starkly clear. Distortion amount, too. You want to hear a distorted track? Have a listen to Mountain's Mississippi Queen. It's a perfect example of an iconic song recorded with, shall we say, high signal levels. Starting with Leslie's 100W Stramp, no doubt. But the overall track level is low, like most "classic" recordings. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 29, 2018 14:09:09 GMT -6
With sound check on it is -16 LUFS. With it off....I have no idea. So if the typical iTunes user (like me) listens with Sound Check off, they get whatever the artist mastered to, level-wise? Sure seems like it. My playlists are numerous and cut across all genres/time periods, and the difference in level is starkly clear. Distortion amount, too. You want to hear a distorted track? Have a listen to Mountain's Mississippi Queen. It's a perfect example of an iconic song recorded with, shall we say, high signal levels. Starting with Leslie's 100W Stramp, no doubt. But the overall track level is low, like most "classic" recordings. I don't know if that is so or not. But I can say the level difference is huge between tracks with it off as you said. Nothing in the documentation about Mastered for iTunes states anything about Level in terms of LUFS though www.apple.com/itunes/mastered-for-itunes/ |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 29, 2018 14:09:55 GMT -6
Ho-ly crap. Listen to the FL/GA Line song (if you can stomach) that's No.1 overall right now. First listen with Soundcheck on...then listen with it off.
It sounds like they mastered that thing to freaking -5 LUFS. When I put Soundcheck on and listen to that FGL song, then go into my itunes Library, and listen to my wav file, mine is louder...so - that makes sense. But just how are the loudness wars over? Why would I master to -14 LUFS and trust everybody has their Soundcheck on lol.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 29, 2018 14:12:49 GMT -6
Oh wait - scratch that. Mine gets reduced in the Library too...but they seem to be similar volume levels...so that means they're reducing it down to a certain level (Is it -16?) Take Soundcheck off and That FGL song is waaaay louder.
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Post by matt on Mar 29, 2018 14:29:38 GMT -6
Oh wait - scratch that. Mine gets reduced in the Library too...but they seem to be similar volume levels...so that means they're reducing it down to a certain level (Is it -16?) Take Soundcheck off and That FGL song is waaaay louder. Same thing in the Rock world with Supremacy by Muse. I'd like to know how that song was mastered because it's very loud but (to my blown ears, anyway) doesn't sound super-crushed- perhaps because it has some nice dynamics. The snare on Supremacy is beyond loud- if I mixed something like that for my band, the guys would return with a big WTF! |
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 29, 2018 14:41:36 GMT -6
Oh wait - scratch that. Mine gets reduced in the Library too...but they seem to be similar volume levels...so that means they're reducing it down to a certain level (Is it -16?) Take Soundcheck off and That FGL song is waaaay louder. Yeah soundcheck is -16 LUFS. The thing that was supposed to "end" the loudness wars was that all the other streaming services normalize. Youtube for instance changes everything to -13 LUFS(except the freaking ads i swear to god..) and Spotify was -14 LUFS. At least thats what its supposed to be. This is the article I read a while ago. Kind of insightful in ways. www.masteringthemix.com/blogs/learn/76296773-mastering-audio-for-soundcloud-itunes-spotify-and-youtubeStill doesn't answer your questions really though haha |
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Post by matt on Mar 29, 2018 14:46:15 GMT -6
Oh wait - scratch that. Mine gets reduced in the Library too...but they seem to be similar volume levels...so that means they're reducing it down to a certain level (Is it -16?) Yeah soundcheck is -16 LUFS. The thing that was supposed to "end" the loudness wars was that all the other streaming services normalize Yes, seems to be the case. Then, Apple is the only service that gives users a choice? Normal to -16, or not normal to whatever the level? I find it somewhat ironical. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 29, 2018 14:48:02 GMT -6
Yeah soundcheck is -16 LUFS. The thing that was supposed to "end" the loudness wars was that all the other streaming services normalize Yes, seems to be the case. Then, Apple is the only service that gives users a choice? Normal to -16, or not normal to whatever the level? I find it somewhat ironical. haha i know right! |
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Post by matt on Mar 29, 2018 15:00:56 GMT -6
Interesting article on Lifewire about Sound Check: Sound Check
According to them, the ID3 tag for level is editable since it's just metadata. The way they suggest at the end is too easy, and perhaps spoofable. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2018 15:50:34 GMT -6
I just ranted about that somehow in the other thread.
I do not see the loudness war beeing over, until the biggest players in streaming and private radio broadcast stations let it be over also.
Man, this shit with advertisements beeing louder than program actually was the idea behind it, the REASON for european broadcast norm of -23LUFS+-1 beeing mandatory for the whole program. It is made for the listener, so he does not get a bleeding ear everytime when ads and jingles kick in. Really, it IS kind of malicious injury, isn't it?
BUT - exactly those, who have this problem the worst, the most commercial services and broadcasts give a shit about broadcast recommandations for public service broadcast. The advertisers know about the louder sticks in the ear effect. So the end of loudness war most probably need retrictive laws about loudness limits and maximum changes. I do not guess we will see it anytime soon. Unfortunately.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2018 2:12:02 GMT -6
Most of my clients (even the Hiphop ones) are happy with between -12 to -10 LUFS integrated. I very rarely go louder than that. I don't want a name for myself as the guy who can always make it louder, why would I? With the current ambient/Chillout/Downtempo 21 track compilation I'm doing, the label owner has OK'd "sound quality as a priority above all else", and so they are all around -14.5 LUFS integrated on the loudest sections. I love these kind of projects. Sounds great.  Some stuff really crushed can sound OK if the crest factor/peak to average RMS loudness ratio is still good. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 30, 2018 7:24:47 GMT -6
It’s a real concern, actually. If a client pulls up basically anything, they don’t just think it sounds “bigger,” they think it sounds “better.” And - hey - it’s not just them. My initial thought is “damn, mine sounds small...” I hear the other sounding strident in the loud parts...but that’s like trying to tell people donuts are bad for them.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 30, 2018 7:26:45 GMT -6
Oh - and when I can, I promise to let you reap mastering engineers deal with all of this...but most of the projects I get now require my whore mastering skillz.
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Post by joey808 on Mar 30, 2018 19:55:19 GMT -6
Try working with EDM Clients!
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 30, 2018 20:14:18 GMT -6
Try working with EDM Clients! No. |
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Post by joey808 on Mar 30, 2018 20:49:38 GMT -6
Try working with EDM Clients! No. Hahaha! -4 RMS! it's never loud enough! |
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 30, 2018 22:10:49 GMT -6
Hahaha! -4 RMS! it's never loud enough! good lord.. |
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