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Post by matt@IAA on Jan 29, 2018 14:54:29 GMT -6
I’m no pro and I’ve been focusing a lot on my tracking skills. Lately I have been trying to more critically examine my mixes. I don’t find myself wanting a ton of automation, and I see a lot of pros use it a bunch. So - what do you do spice up your mixes, to bring energy? I feel like a lot of mine sound fine, but don’t have that sense of energy or urgency I get from pro mixes.
Got any tips to share? Really thinking about rock and roll, stuff with acoustic drums and electric guitars, etc.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 29, 2018 15:06:36 GMT -6
Generally, things need to change. A chorus rises a little, a 2nd verse might come down in volume and aggression, and an instrument might drop out, like a mini breakdown, a middle might introduce a new instrument, change in vocal sound. Don't be afraid to bring a new instrument in later, and most important is achieving a drum track that's organic. Balance kick and bass. Set up a VU style meter, plug, set the kick to -3db, add the bass, get the meter to 0, now they're balanced, mix around that.
Good luck.
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Post by svart on Jan 29, 2018 15:06:55 GMT -6
It's all about the low end and how it fits together.
You need to aggressively cut and boost stuff to make it fit together. In a modern mix, there is a lot less below 70hz or so than you think, and a lot more mids, but only in strategic places. The rest is missing fundamental trickery through either distortion or a specific plugin like Rbass to make things seem more full than they are.
Then, there is also the envelope of the attacks. Hard transients are the devil in hot mixes, so you need to manage transients down to little more than a fast bump. That's why the SSL bus comp and API2500 are king of rock compressors..
I find that I go around in circles a few times doing EQ and setting compressors, then back to EQ, etc. That way I dial in the sound that works between them since EQ can greatly affect how the compressors work.
But that's the psycho-acoustic trickery behind it all, to get only the tones you need with the right envelope to sound hard hitting and full, but not actually be either one.
For example, we'll examine the kick drum..
You want it to be heard, but you can't push it up too much in the mix or else it'll make the compressors work hard and start ducking the rest of the mix slightly, or those woofy mids start to make the bass guitar disappear.. Some people try to sidechain and duck and all that, but each instrument has a happy place in the spectrum and if you aren't finding that, then the pre-production didn't go into enough detail..
So, what the pros do these days is find the driest thump in the bottom end, somewhere in the 50-80hz range, and then HPF as close to that beef as possible without affecting it. You'll notice the strange rumble starting to disappear..
Now, sweep the eq to find the nasal harmonic that kicks tend to have, somewhere in the 125-300 range and scoop it right out. Not 3dB, not 6dB but 9+dB of medium-wide cut. It's going to sound woolly and strange when solo'd, but we don't care right now.
Then go hunting for the resonant slap of the beater.. It's going to be around 5K-10K. Now narrow peak boost that sucker like 10+dB. You're using this as fake "detail" to fool the ear into thinking that it hears everything in between the 10K peak and the low meat. It'll sound terrible solo'd but it'll poke out just enough in the mix that the brain will fill in the rest.
LPF just above your high peak to get any fizz and cymbal bleed out of there. Add some EQ cuts to get rid of just about anything else in the midrange that might fight with the other instruments.
Now, use your subkick (You DID use a subkick, right?) and bandpass that thing so there is only 30-60Hz left. Send that thing to your kick track/bus and mix a little in.
Now, when you bring this into your mix, the bottom will add the thump and that tiny peak will add the smack and the listener will "hear" the kick.
However, the mix still needs to thump a little, so you add your drum bus compressor to get the drum tracks to mingle and their frequencies mix a little, before you send to the master bus. The master bus compressor will "see" more of the bottom end changing in level with the kick hitting, and it'll add a slight round "hiccup" to the rest of the tracks faking the human ear into thinking it's louder than it is. That's because the human eardrum and the tiny bones compress slightly when something loud happens. You're re-creating that effect externally.
That's the basis for the modern rock kick drum. Snare, bass, etc are all the same way. You're accentuating the interesting parts of each instrument, while removing the parts that don't matter or actually hinder other instruments. You then add compression on top of that to shape the envelope of the attacks, and then circle around to adjust the EQ to either continue accentuating parts, or reign them back in if the compressor makes them too apparent.
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Post by jeromemason on Jan 29, 2018 15:13:50 GMT -6
Envelopes of the material.
A lot of the stuff I'm handed to mix, you can tell really quickly if the producer has been at it a while or if he's just getting started.
I say that because when you go from a verse to a chorus to a bridge (which is what I'm assuming you're talking about) it isn't about throwing the kitchen sink in. Think of it more as looking at landscape pictures, you go from one scene to another, maybe the other has more edge, but the important thing is that the scene changes. With the seasoned producers they do this for me, all I have to do is automate interesting parts in and out of those scenes that make the mix seem interesting, but it's not about increasing level to gain impact, the impact is gained from changing scenes and you do that with arrangement and instruments. Sometimes I will have a different kick or snare sample for the verse/chorus', or I'll take the sample out of the verses etc. The automation you're seeing is only to make sure important parts are heard and to also help with envelope/scene changes.
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Post by matt@IAA on Jan 29, 2018 17:57:20 GMT -6
Envelopes of the material. A lot of the stuff I'm handed to mix, you can tell really quickly if the producer has been at it a while or if he's just getting started. I say that because when you go from a verse to a chorus to a bridge (which is what I'm assuming you're talking about) it isn't about throwing the kitchen sink in. Think of it more as looking at landscape pictures, you go from one scene to another, maybe the other has more edge, but the important thing is that the scene changes. With the seasoned producers they do this for me, all I have to do is automate interesting parts in and out of those scenes that make the mix seem interesting, but it's not about increasing level to gain impact, the impact is gained from changing scenes and you do that with arrangement and instruments. Sometimes I will have a different kick or snare sample for the verse/chorus', or I'll take the sample out of the verses etc. The automation you're seeing is only to make sure important parts are heard and to also help with envelope/scene changes. That’s more what I’m talking about. Less arrangement, but more how to take the arrangement bits and tie them together with mixing dynamics. I’d consider instrument presentation and sound ...”selection” really more producer work than mixing engineer. But how you stage those pieces and tie them in seems to be another step in the chain.
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Post by jazznoise on Jan 29, 2018 18:40:59 GMT -6
If we're looking for simple tricks in pop music - 2nd verse comes: Mute something. Use things like Hipassing and Flanging like a DJ would on a mixer. Reverse tricks for fade ins. Print the chorus 0.5dB louder than the chorus. Take the double track, apply extreme FX to it and cut between it.
In terms of a band style production, ideally the band is left as uninterfered as possible and then everything after that is done in sympathy with the band's ideas. Often that means just capturing the sounds as well as possible, helping them chose sounds where they're unsure, and not really fucking with them too hard from that. You can use stuff, but don't get obsessed with your toys when there's a perfectly good song in front of you.
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Post by mrholmes on Jan 29, 2018 21:55:57 GMT -6
I’m no pro and I’ve been focusing a lot on my tracking skills. Lately I have been trying to more critically examine my mixes. I don’t find myself wanting a ton of automation, and I see a lot of pros use it a bunch. So - what do you do spice up your mixes, to bring energy? I feel like a lot of mine sound fine, but don’t have that sense of energy or urgency I get from pro mixes. Got any tips to share? Really thinking about rock and roll, stuff with acoustic drums and electric guitars, etc. Without something to listen too it's fishing in the dark - but may my thoughts help. For me it starts with writing the song. Energy is that it moves me inside. In mixing automation can help to underline the drama.
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Post by jampa on Jan 30, 2018 1:26:15 GMT -6
One way to get energy out of a mix is to get a mix up fast - use your instincts and don't get too used to the material.
To do that you might do prep work separate from mixing, listen to a faders up balance without making any moves, then get a ballpark mix up in like 30 minutes. Iron it out and then get artist feedback asap - you may have gone not in their direction.
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 30, 2018 2:25:45 GMT -6
I’m no pro and I’ve been focusing a lot on my tracking skills. Lately I have been trying to more critically examine my mixes. I don’t find myself wanting a ton of automation, and I see a lot of pros use it a bunch. So - what do you do spice up your mixes, to bring energy? I feel like a lot of mine sound fine, but don’t have that sense of energy or urgency I get from pro mixes. Got any tips to share? Really thinking about rock and roll, stuff with acoustic drums and electric guitars, etc. Dynamics. Beware of compressing things that don't need it and overcompressing things that do. The "popular" idea is that compression makes things "louder" but too much compression, or compression of the wrong things makes things small.
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 30, 2018 13:04:02 GMT -6
An addendum to that last post - if you want a more compressed sound on something but want to preserve the dynamic punch you can try parallel compression, where you split into two tracks, compress one and leave the other with full dynamics, then mix them back together.
I don't do it much but I'm more into retro country than rock these days. A few years ago, however, I would have been all over that.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 31, 2018 7:32:03 GMT -6
More and more you have to remember it all starts with the raw tracks! You can't fake or plugin energy! It starts at the bottom so you need monitors and a room that will really let you know what's happening down to at least 30HZ! Subs need to be well tuned, if not set up right the crossover region is going to suck the energy right out !
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Post by lcr on Jan 31, 2018 8:49:48 GMT -6
Has automation been mentioned?
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Post by notneeson on Jan 31, 2018 9:16:49 GMT -6
Has automation been mentioned? I’ll mention it! About 12 years ago I was mixing regularly on a Ghost. As my skills continued to improve, I realized that even though I could do projects to 2” and mix purely analog, my mixes greatly benefitted from the advent of auto, which necessitated dumping the reels to ProTools.
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Post by swurveman on Jan 31, 2018 9:25:54 GMT -6
As I said before, and particularly because these are your songs, the other thing that I find missing today is the energy in arrangements using -for example- picking slowly and gradually speeding up to a crescendo, pauses and and well placed instruments coming into the arrangements adding energy by presenting another flavor. In sum, instrumental arrangements that use contrast to emphasize the excitement/energy that instrumental contrast brings.
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Post by pope on Jan 31, 2018 9:49:52 GMT -6
Apart from the obvious which is well recorded material, there are two things I find critical.
(in this order)
1) Arrangement 2) Bottom end. Once you get the bottom end right, you're half way through with your mix.
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Post by Tbone81 on Jan 31, 2018 10:53:54 GMT -6
I find mixing my own songs (as opposed to a clients) to be really challenging. By the time your mixing you've likely spent months writing, playing, rehearsing, re-writing, tweaking, tracking, editing etc. so by the time you mix it's VERY hard to be objective. At least for me it is.
I'm finding that if I give my self some time after tracking, without hearing the song, and start a new mix from scratch it really helps. Also, I've been trying to get a good rough mix (volume and panning only) up really fast. Like, it should sound like a good song in less than five minutes, don't give yourself time to think (or should I say overthink?). Just go with your gut. After that you should have a really good foundation for your mix.
Not sure if that applies to you but this method has dramatically changed my mixes for the better.
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Post by drbill on Jan 31, 2018 10:59:41 GMT -6
- Song Arrangement - with a nod to frequency relationships. (It used to be simpler when everything was "live" acoustic instruments. They were built to work that way, and the ensembles were generally built in a way that worked - i.e.: not 3 synth basses. LOL.)
- Automation. Perhaps the reason you're not feeling the energy is because you're not wanting/using automation? My automation lanes are ALL OVER the place, Mega automation everywhere. The more you compress stuff, the more important this becomes.
- Feel free to nuke what were once "important" parts. in other words, go back to #1 here - song arrangement. Make it work.
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Post by drbill on Jan 31, 2018 11:22:52 GMT -6
PS - one of the reasons automation is so important and reshaping arrangements is so important is due to our production workflow these days. Used to be back in the 80's, we'd get 6 guys in a room and start playing. That rarely happens anymore. Now...it's often one at a time, and even more egregious, often in isolation (in another city via internet). This almost always means cutting stuff up, repositioning parts, and.....
automation to bring back the dynamics that would happen naturally when a bunch of guys (providing they are listening and pro's) are in the same room together.
AUTOMATE!!!!!
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 31, 2018 11:50:59 GMT -6
PS - one of the reasons automation is so important and reshaping arrangements is so important is due to our production workflow these days. Used to be back in the 80's, we'd get 6 guys in a room and start playing. That rarely happens anymore. Now...it's often one at a time, and even more egregious, often in isolation (in another city via internet). This almost always means cutting stuff up, repositioning parts, and..... automation to bring back the dynamics that would happen naturally when a bunch of guys (providing they are listening and pro's) are in the same room together. AUTOMATE!!!!! Yeah and back then we didn't get that having those 6 guys in a good room made capturing that energy really easy! Almost like we were cheating! Before someone says hey Eric you turned 12 in 1980 how much time could you have spent in studio in most of the 80's, your not that old! The first time I assisted I was 11 and I ran my first session in a real studio at 13! Yeah I was a weird kid, but remember the guy who was one of my first mentors and still a good friend , who I call for advice would go on to manage Butch Vigs Smart Studios during it's hey day, plus a high school classmate is the Audio Supervisor for Blue Man Group FL so I wasn't alone😎
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Post by matt@IAA on Jan 31, 2018 12:41:05 GMT -6
- Song Arrangement - with a nod to frequency relationships. (It used to be simpler when everything was "live" acoustic instruments. They were built to work that way, and the ensembles were generally built in a way that worked - i.e.: not 3 synth basses. LOL.) - Automation. Perhaps the reason you're not feeling the energy is because you're not wanting/using automation? My automation lanes are ALL OVER the place, Mega automation everywhere. The more you compress stuff, the more important this becomes. - Feel free to nuke what were once "important" parts. in other words, go back to #1 here - song arrangement. Make it work. That’s what I’m looking for though. I don’t know what I don’t know when it comes to automation. Haha
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 31, 2018 13:22:52 GMT -6
More and more you have to remember it all starts with the raw tracks! You can't fake or plugin energy! It starts at the bottom so you need monitors and a room that will really let you know what's happening down to at least 30HZ! Subs need to be well tuned, if not set up right the crossover region is going to suck the energy right out ! And don't forget the mics! A few really good mics make a HUGE difference.
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 31, 2018 13:29:15 GMT -6
PS - one of the reasons automation is so important and reshaping arrangements is so important is due to our production workflow these days. Used to be back in the 80's, we'd get 6 guys in a room and start playing. That rarely happens anymore. Now...it's often one at a time, and even more egregious, often in isolation (in another city via internet). This almost always means cutting stuff up, repositioning parts, and..... automation to bring back the dynamics that would happen naturally when a bunch of guys (providing they are listening and pro's) are in the same room together. AUTOMATE!!!!! Automation can't really duplicate live dynamics. You can try though - it's better than nothing. One of these days I'll get the automation set up on my console - I have moving faders* - but until then we just do it the old fashioned way with four hands on the faders. Gives it that "human" touch. * - Unfortunately the console's onboard computer is a real PITA to deal with... and it stores mixes to floppies...
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Post by drbill on Jan 31, 2018 13:38:58 GMT -6
That's true John. But most mixes these day's don't really try to approximate "natural" dynamics. They are designed to rob the dynamics, add punch, and they automate some life back in. LOL I know, weird, but true.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 31, 2018 14:42:18 GMT -6
Wouldn't it be nice if you could automate in Logic or Pro Tools, and a board could then do those moves mechanically. Too much to ask I guess.
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Post by jampa on Jan 31, 2018 14:53:37 GMT -6
^ That is entirely possible. For example, an SSL AWS with Pro Tools.
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