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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 2, 2018 12:30:46 GMT -6
Carried this over from the other thread. I don't know why but I always want to call EA Experiential Audio So, I guess ask any question you might have of Michael: his products, design philosophy and goals ? He said this : If you open a thread, I'll try to be helpful. Vance and Bob are great guys to learn from and they sure know their stuff. PhoenixVerb and R2 are my first-generation reverbs and they're quite easy to use. My second-generation (NIMBUS/R4) came out over the last year and they carry forward from where Phoenix/R2 started. The biggest changes in the second generation are enhanced EQ, a number of dynamic processes, more early reflection patterns, and the warp function (which adds overdrive, compression and so on). Because they're much more powerful, they benefit from more study by the user.
I've got several surround and 3D reverbs which are probably not relevant to most discussions on this group. They carry forward the basic sounds of my stereo algorithms, but have a number of enhancements targeted toward post and other surround needs, such as greater control in directing early reflections. I still hold out some hope that surround will have a future in music production. We gave it a good try in the late 90s--Lex and TC on the hardware side, guys like Bobby Owsinski and Frank Filipetti on the music side. But in those days there were too many delivery formats--CD, HD-DVD, BluRay, SACD, DVD-A, etc--with no clear winner. No retailer was going to stock all that stuff! Now the only media option is BluRay (or streaming--yuck), so we're seeing some new work as well as remixes headed that way. It's a huge investment on the mix room side, but boy does it ever sound good! Michael Carnes Exponential Audio
Fire away !! Read more: realgearonline.com/thread/8138/lexicon-pcm-native-reverb-plugin?page=1#ixzz533M0iNLB
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Post by stormymondays on Jan 2, 2018 13:31:20 GMT -6
Thanks for opening the thread! I like all that I have listened to and read about these reverbs, but the amount of different products can be a bit confusing.
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Post by drbill on Jan 2, 2018 13:36:38 GMT -6
I'll add to Stormy's comment - I can't quite seem to get a grasp on the personalities of the EA products. I tend to get that fairly easily with other developers, but the EA verb products have always been a bit enigmatic to me. I suppose I should demo them, but honestly, I rarely EVER demo products because I like to keep my system clean, lean and mean. I only install when I know I'm going to purchase. My loss I guess, but I'd love to somehow be able to get a better feel / grasp of how the verb is positioned in overall verb marketplace. Something more definitive than a letter and a number (R2, etc.). Thanks Michael!!
bp
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2018 14:50:26 GMT -6
I've not tried any of them. Was very happy with my PCM70 but sold it after the Valhalla plugs came along, been very happy with all of those. I'll give these a demo.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2018 16:38:37 GMT -6
Thanks for opening the thread! I like all that I have listened to and read about these reverbs, but the amount of different products can be a bit confusing. Here's a little table that simplifies. As you can see, there are really just two basic architectures (although the architectures have gotten more powerful over the years). I've left Excalibur and M7Control out of this as they're not reverbs. At any rate, depending on what you do, you can eliminate some of the 'verbs. Architecture | 1st Gen Stereo | 1st Gen Surround | 2nd Gen Stereo | 2nd Gen Surround | PhoenixVerb | PhoenixVerb | PhoenixVerb Surround | NIMBUS | Stratus & Stratus3D | R2 | R2 | R2 Surround | R4 | Symphony & Symphony3D |
I can describe this chart in a few ways. We can talk about the architectural differences, the generational differences. And if I haven't bored you to tears, you might want to know a little about what the surrounds bring to the table and how they differ from the stereos. I'll try to break all of this into separate posts, easily digestible (or ignorable). I'll also contrast this a little (in a non-critical way) with what you might hear in Lexicon 'verbs. Does that work?
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Post by stormymondays on Jan 2, 2018 16:52:53 GMT -6
That does help a lot, thanks! You could do something similar on the site, or maybe downplay the older generation reverbs.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2018 17:06:51 GMT -6
That does help a lot, thanks! You could do something similar on the site, or maybe downplay the older generation reverbs. The first-generation is still popular, especially in educational or tight-money situations. So I'm really more focused on helping people find something that gets them more money than they paid out (or more pleasure if they're in this for fun).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2018 17:29:35 GMT -6
The PhoenixVerb Architecture
PhoenixVerb was designed to be pure and un-noticeable. It's a tool to make a track or mix sound better without tipping off anyone that there's an added reverb. Nothing can make a bad room sound good, but a neutral room can benefit in a number of ways--moving back the apparent position of the mics, lengthening the reverb time, etc. That's where I think PhoenixVerb plays best. One of the things that you must do in order to accomplish this is to make sure any modulation is not noticeable. Modulation in a general sense can be quite helpful: it breaks up room modes and provides variability and naturalness to a recording. But you can't have pitch or volume effects in a reverb intended to be natural. PhoenixVerb is modulated, but you're not going to be able to hear it. The only way you might even notice it is the fact that no two impulse responses will be quite identical.
You can set quite long reverb times in PhoenixVerb. But the only thing you'll notice at the end of the tail is that the signal is increasingly diffuse and the frequency balance changes in whatever way you've set the EQ. One of the things you'll hear in 'classic' reverbs is an increasing amount of white noise. This is the buildup of quantization error as it recirculates. Some people like it (not sure why) but it's really not the same thing as depth. A real room doesn't do that.
The PhoenixVerb architecture is often used for full mixes, and it's on a lot of film mixes you'll hear as well. I tend to like it on percussion since it doesn't do strange stuff to the transients. But I find that very good engineers do the opposite of what I suggest and they get great results. It really comes back to what your intentions are and how well you know your tools.
The basic PhoenixVerb architecture provides 3 basic reverb types: Plate (you know what you'll use a plate for), Chamber (percussion, voice, most instruments) and Hall (not particularly good for percussion, but good for full mixes, voice, horns and so on). They're differentiated by overall density, how quickly they "speak", how the signal evolves and a few little bits of up-front EQ.
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Post by nudwig on Jan 2, 2018 17:55:07 GMT -6
I started with Exponential Audio a few years back when I got a bundle that came with the Bricasti control plugin (which is awesome and in my view crucial if you own an M7). Since then I always ended up trying all the new verbs that came out. My favorite until the newest 2 was the R4. Over the holiday I checked out the newest 2. I have to say if you're curious about what Exponential can do skip right to the Symphony. In my opinion it's amazing that a verb this good exists as a plugin. I can get it scary close to the M7, with the exception of the low end thing the Bricasti does (always feels to me like there's 2 channels dedicated to just low end). What sold me was the short fat plate (narr) straight on a vocal track dialed back to 15% wet. Sat the vocal in so nice it was scary. Yes it's expensive and I don't even use it in surround but I like that I can have something with me at all times without having to lug my M7 around. For reference on other plugins I have all the UAD verbs, Altiverb, those in the Slate bundle, Eventide, Lexicon, and a bunch I can't remember as I don't use them as often. I obviously have my flavor favorites that likely won't change but if I didn't I'd be happy with just the Symphony. Definitely worth a demo.
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Post by drbill on Jan 2, 2018 17:56:28 GMT -6
Thanks Michael. I look forward to more of you descriptions. As I look at the graph above, I'm reminded why I tend to get confused with your products. :-)
I can see R2Surround as being a surround version of R2. And it's fairly obvious that R4 is a 2nd gen R2 because of the "R" nomenclature. But Nimbus shows no nomenclature lineage from Phoenix (that I know of or would have guessed), and I'd never guess the Symphony Surround is a surround version of R4, and etc..
Not a criticism, but rather an observation from a fairly interested yet confused observer.....
For whatever it's worth....
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Post by drbill on Jan 2, 2018 17:59:28 GMT -6
I started with Exponential Audio a few years back when I got a bundle that came with the Bricasti control plugin (which is awesome and in my view crucial if you own an M7). Since then I always ended up trying all the new verbs that came out. My favorite until the newest 2 was the R4. Over the holiday I checked out the newest 2. I have to say if you're curious about what Exponential can do skip right to the Symphony. In my opinion it's amazing that a verb this good exists as a plugin. I can get it scary close to the M7, with the exception of the low end thing the Bricasti does (always feels to me like there's 2 channels dedicated to just low end). What sold me was the short fat plate (narr) straight on a vocal track dialed back to 15% wet. Sat the vocal in so nice it was scary. Yes it's expensive and I don't even use it in surround but I like that I can have something with me at all times without having to lug my M7 around. For reference on other plugins I have all the UAD verbs, Altiverb, those in the Slate bundle, Eventide, Lexicon, and a bunch I can't remember as I don't use them as often. I obviously have my flavor favorites that likely won't change but if I didn't I'd be happy with just the Symphony. Definitely worth a demo. Are you mixing in surround using these? Or are there stereo versions available as well. Oops, I see you don't use it in surround. Why is is designated as a surround plugin then? More confused than ever....
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2018 18:10:27 GMT -6
The R2 Architecture
While the PhoenixVerb architecture is designed to be unobtrusive, the R2 isn't. The reverb engine is designed to have noticeable modulation. In the first generation this is purely pitch modulation. In the second generation, additional types of modulation are added to this. Not only is the engine designed around modulation, it's actually unstable without it! Even when you think you've turned it off, there's still a little bit. The modulation is most obvious with a long tail and fairly high values. You'll hear a tail that may recall some aspects of an old 224. But there's an additional option. Modulation has a "fat" mode, which means modulation works against itself. If pitch is modulating upward, it's also modulating down by the same amount at the same time. It has a very neat effect of fattening up the signal without your being able to hear any sort of vibrato effect. I was pleasantly surprised by this when I was prototyping the reverb.
Overall I think the R2 sound is preferable if you're looking for a "produced" sort of sound. If you want a vocal that sort of hangs in the air or a guitar sound that harkens back to the 80s, this can be a good choice. But if you back off on the modulation a bit, it's nice for horns, strings and other signals without too much in the way of sharp transients. I've even used it on classical recordings that felt sterile. R2, used with restraint, can warm up a mix. But even though it's not my first choice for percussion, scoring mixer Alan Myerson (Wonder Woman, Dunkirk, Interstellar, etc) has used it on his percussion tracks for quite a while. Again, it goes back to the sound you're after and your knowledge of your tools.
Like PhoenixVerb, R2 also has a plate, chamber and hall. The sound is different for each type when compared to PhoenixVerb. The modulation means that the plate and chamber don't really model anything I ever saw. But they've still got their uses. I think the Hall is where most people go in R2, probably because of the life in the tail.
Oops. Forgot one important thing (this is where you tell me to RTFM). The R2 architecture also has an optional gate on the reverb tail. It operates pretty much as you'd expect at gate to work. Any signal above a user-determined threshold will hold the gate open and all reverb to pass. Signal falling below the threshold will shut off the tail (with parameters that determine how quickly the gate closes and so on). The obvious inspiration was that giant snare drum sound from the 80s. But it turns out to have other uses. You might want a very live reverberant sound, but you still want it out of the way quickly when the signal goes away. The gate turns out to be just the trick in that case.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2018 18:18:35 GMT -6
Are you mixing in surround using these? Or are there stereo versions available as well. Oops, I see you don't use it in surround. Why is is designated as a surround plugin then? More confused than ever.... All of my surrounds will work from mono up to their maximum channel count (I was hoping to avoid this for a few more posts). Yes, they do have a few advantages over the stereo ones--even in stereo. But they're more expensive and a mix in stereo doesn't begin to touch on what the 'verbs can do in surround or 3D situations. In a surround mix, it's not at all unusual to have all sorts of track combinations in the same mix. You might have dialog in mono (mono-in/surround out), other components in stereo, LCR or quad. Your score might have been recorded in 5-channel or 7-channel. It's a real advantage for the mixer to have a single plugin that can handle all of these situations with compatible presets and UI. Someone please remind me to talk about workflow later on if I forget. It's not something that gets talked about when people are comparing favorite plugins. But it's hugely important to me and is a real guiding tenet of my work.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 2, 2018 18:35:49 GMT -6
Michael please talk to us about workflow when choosing using verbs !
In all seriousness, understanding verbs can seem so deep , excuse the somewhat pun.
I get kind of lost in all the technique and just fall back on does it sound too wet and back off from that and am interested in better understanding how people use multiple verbs in same mix: seems a little counterintuitive: we don’t hear in multiple verbs: right ?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2018 21:17:40 GMT -6
Michael please talk to us about workflow when choosing using verbs ! In all seriousness, understanding verbs can seem so deep , excuse the somewhat pun. I get kind of lost in all the technique and just fall back on does it sound too wet and back off from that and am interested in better understanding how people use multiple verbs in same mix: seems a little counterintuitive: we don’t hear in multiple verbs: right ? Well, if you insist As much fun as a reverb might be to a developer, it's just a small part of what a mixer has to worry about. Whether it's the ultimate snare drum sound or a bit of dialog that just won't fit in, you're worried about level, EQ and a host of other things. If the reverb slows you down, you won't use it any more. A big part of the solution is presets--the more the better. But as the number of presets increases, it can be a real slog to find the one you want. So I don't put them in "banks". That worked for a PCM70 that only had a few dozen. But most of my plugs have over a thousand presets. So I store them under application specific "Keywords" (percussion, vocal, small, plate, etc). Most plugs fall under several keywords. I also added a search facility to let you find presets. And then I also let you put whatever presets you like on a "Favorites" list, that can hold as many presets as you need. Once you get the hang of it, you can find what you need very quickly. Presets are the first thing people encounter, as well as the last for a lot of folks. If the presets work for you, perhaps you'll be fine with not knowing the fine details of how to push the 'verb around. But if you do, then the presentation of parameters is the next most important thing. I've spent a lot of time over the years learning what controls mixers prefer to get at first, as well as the corners of a 'verb where they rarely venture. So it's part of my job to get the common things up front, while still leaving an easy invitation to explore a little deeper. One thing that's changed as more and more work goes in-box is this. When hardware ruled the roost, if you wanted 10 480L's on a track, you either bought 10 480s or you did 10 submixes with the one you had. One solution killed your pocketbook and the other killed your schedule. But if you want 10 (or 20 or 30) of my R4s, you only need the one license. And people will use all the plugins they can squeeze onto a computer. The ability to program efficiently is important. Since I'm an old coot, I started out programming on PDP-11s, IBM 370s and the like (all museum pieces now). That was helpful. But then in watching how people put mixes together, I realized there were additional savings to be had. So my plugins actually know how to shut themselves down when there's no signal passing. Any plugin could do this, but I'm not aware of any others that do. Talking about CPU efficiency may not seem like a workflow issue, but it really is. If you're doing mixing/recording for clients, you already know they want a bigger sound in less time for less money. The only way you can do that is by having tools that let you do it quicker. If you're mixing a TV show or a movie, you may only have weeks (or days) before air time. There's a director breathing down your neck about quality and a producer breathing down both your necks about time. As a developer, I have to be conscious about all that and try to make my small corner of the world better. Let's talk about your multiple verbs question in another post.
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Post by ericn on Jan 2, 2018 21:28:04 GMT -6
I always found it funny how many people bought boxes because of how deep they could go and in the end relied on just the presets!
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Post by nudwig on Jan 2, 2018 21:45:47 GMT -6
Are you mixing in surround using these? Or are there stereo versions available as well. Oops, I see you don't use it in surround. Why is is designated as a surround plugin then? More confused than ever.... I have accidentally put it on in surround. I could be imagining it but it seemed to sound a bit different, I liked it either way. But as Michael answered it goes from mono to I believe 7.1. I should also add to his post about the workflow and presets, I'm not sure if it's me being used to Exponential's products but with every new verb I seem to be able to get around very quickly. Kinda like you learn one and the others are instantly familiar. The favorites section is a big time saver.
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Post by m03 on Jan 2, 2018 21:55:19 GMT -6
The bundle with R4 and Nimbus looks pretty appealing....wish I had seen that there was a holiday sale back when it was still in effect!
I did have a couple of questions though (and these might just be due to my ignorance on all things iLok):
Is machine-based iLok authorization supported, or is it limited to dongle-only iLok?
If the former is not currently supported, is there a timeline for when it will be available?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2018 22:03:28 GMT -6
The bundle with R4 and Nimbus looks pretty appealing....wish I had seen that there was a holiday sale back when it was still in effect! I did have a couple of questions though (and these might just be due to my ignorance on all things iLok): Is machine-based iLok authorization supported, or is it limited to dongle-only iLok? If the former is not currently supported, is there a timeline for when it will be available? Physical iLok is required. I don't have any plans to go to machine-based. It's somewhat less secure.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 3, 2018 22:16:57 GMT -6
Micheal Thank you very informative, thank you for taking the time to help clarify the differences in your products.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 3:49:19 GMT -6
Physical iLok is required. That rules things out for me, I'm afraid.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 8:00:10 GMT -6
Micheal Thank you very informative, thank you for taking the time to help clarify the differences in your products. Thanks for your interest. I'll be back with some more stuff, but I've got a few other things on my plate right now.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2018 6:20:18 GMT -6
Now about the second generation...
After my first-generation reverbs (PhoenixVerb, R2 and their surround versions), I began to think about Act II. The second-generation reverbs (NIMBUS, R4, Stratus and Symphony) are built with a set of new features. The core architecture builds on Phoenix and R2, but the new generation has a number of new features in common.
Improved EQ Both the early and tail EQ have notch and bandpass features built in. On top of that, there's an input EQ with 6 EQ types. This modifies the input so that you can exclude rumble, squeaks and so on. You can also roll off the highs if you want to move the virtual mic position away from the source.
Warp This brings a number of features that can be swapped in by a single button: --Compressor/expander - You can apply dynamics to the signal before it enters the reverb tail. Compressing allows you to bring up the reverb level for quieter signals. Expanding allows you to have less reverb for the quieter stuff.
--Overdrive - subtle, allowing you to added small amounts of distortion like you might get from pushing a send bus. Add 2nd partial, 2nd & 4th partial, or 2nd, 3rd & 4th partial. This is a non-linear process that increases as the signal becomes stronger. There are additional controls that can increase the timbral shift here. You can take this from a basic warmup all the way to some unexpected changes of tone.
--Word size reduction. You can go from floating point down to 12-bit. Bring back the fizz of your vintage favorites.
Tail suppression Another dynamic process that can go from subtle to crazy (I prefer subtle). This allows the input signal to control the level of the tail. Its most useful incarnation allows you to push the tail down just a couple of dB when there are peaks in the input. This really helps to keep the reverb from cluttering up the mix. This can respond very quickly so that there's no sense of pumping. I find this particularly useful for signals with strong transients.
Freeze This is only available for plugins built on the R2 architecture (R4 and Symphony). Grab the contents of the reverb at any moment and play that tail forever. You can capture chords, single notes or room tones. This is addictive. Be careful.
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Post by Mister Chase on Jan 10, 2018 21:24:55 GMT -6
I just finished a Christmas album in October/November that we tracked at Sono Luminus studio down the street from my home. I know Dan Shores there really likes the Exponential reverb. Dan might be the most discerning engineer I've met.
I used the R4 reverb as the only reverb on this album. The natural room is definitely there(it's a very old stone church with high ceilings) but the r4 took it the rest of the way for us.
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Post by wiz on Jan 10, 2018 23:25:58 GMT -6
@exponentialaudio
I really would love, in the Bricasti remote plug in.. say 4 or 5 little squares, marked A, B, C, D,E that I can quickly store a preset in, and then switch between them, so I don't have to go back in to the preset menu, and I don't want to just put them in favourites.
This way, when auditioning different environments for the song, I can quickly switch between a few options, then I could save that preset into Favourites with the song name.
Please consider for your next revision
Cheers
Wiz
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