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Post by Quint on Dec 27, 2017 13:08:07 GMT -6
Yes, but it's still converting to digital to do the routing and then reconverting to analog to send it back out, just as all interfaces do. I don't see what is unique about the Motu in that regard or how that directly compares to the Flock patchbay which remains 100% in the analog domain? Oh I completely missed that. I thought what they were touting was the routing. (No rhyme intended). As far as the motu goes, I thought their internal matrix routing was unique but perhaps not. It certainly is more flexible than any other interface I've used. I have it tagged in my mind as "zero latency" but I guess this isn't true. Now I'm wondering how fast it actually is when you go, for example, pramp -> motu internal routing -> compressor -> motu -> headphone send. motu.com/techsupport/technotes/avbroutingAll modern interfaces have some sort of matrix routing, even if some are more flexible than others. Regardless of the interface, the routing is all in the digital domain though, and requires AD and DA conversion. These Flock patchbays are digital control of analog signal. The signal path (which means all routing) remains 100% analog. No conversion. That's the difference I was pointing out.
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Post by ariel on Dec 27, 2017 20:57:38 GMT -6
I'm waiting to see the price, price and limited size killed the SSL! Yes totally, It was way to limited for a indepth studio with lots of patching. This really comes in handy for us that Mix OTB-the flock audio version with higher count.
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 27, 2017 21:14:56 GMT -6
Personally, I don't want 48v anywhere near my patch bays. Not having pre's in PB's complicates things, no doubt, but 48v patched into converters or other outboard by accident is worse. Disaster waiting to happen. Avoid. Thereis no reason on earth for 48V inb a patchbay because nothing requirinbg 48V should EVER be routed through a conventional patch bay. An XLR panel, sure. NOT a patchbay.
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 27, 2017 21:24:35 GMT -6
Personally, I don't want 48v anywhere near my patch bays. Not having pre's in PB's complicates things, no doubt, but 48v patched into converters or other outboard by accident is worse. Complicates things? Not really. If you're too lazy to plug a mic cable into an input you don't belong in a studio. If you don't want to deal with rear mounted XLRs you need an XLR panel, not a patchbay. And you don't want to keep your expensive mics set up all the time to gather dirt and contamination on their diaphragms. As I'm constantly lecturing my assistant.
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Post by drbill on Dec 28, 2017 1:27:27 GMT -6
I am all about digital recall for analogue stuff, having a patchbay like this would be great for instant recall. I have to do tons of re-patching all the time as I am running multiple sessions quite frequently. If I could just open up a pre saved routing system that would save time and also cut down on the mess with the patch cables all over the place. That is why I am looking fwd to seeing how this works out. if you employ a standard patch bay and enough i/o, it becomes a mute point. Very simple, elegant, 100% recallable, and relatively (!!) cheap.
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Post by drbill on Dec 28, 2017 1:30:04 GMT -6
Personally, I don't want 48v anywhere near my patch bays. Not having pre's in PB's complicates things, no doubt, but 48v patched into converters or other outboard by accident is worse. Complicates things? Not really. If you're too lazy to plug a mic cable into an input you don't belong in a studio. If you don't want to deal with rear mounted XLRs you need an XLR panel, not a patchbay. And you don't want to keep your expensive mics set up all the time to gather dirt and contamination on their diaphragms. As I'm constantly lecturing my assistant. Agreed 100%. But it does complicate things for some people, and some work flows. Then again, studio's are complicated places.....
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Post by jeremygillespie on Dec 28, 2017 10:36:28 GMT -6
Walter Sear never took any mic off a stand. They were all setup and ready to go at all times, tube mics always plugged in and warmed up.
They got used 12 hours a day every day though...
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 29, 2017 15:50:11 GMT -6
I'm waiting to see the price, price and limited size killed the SSL! Yes totally, It was way to limited for a indepth studio with lots of patching. This really comes in handing for us that Mix OTB. HUH? I can maybe see some value to this for people mixing 90% ITB with a few pieces of hardware added but I see no reasonable use in an OTB rig. Is there some reason that people are unable to grab a cable and stick the ends in a couple of holes? (What do these people do for sex?) It seeems to me that something like this negates half the flexibility of a real patch bay, where not only can you plug what's in your racks wherever you want it, but you can also accommodate whatever outboard a client might want to bring in (or anything you might need to demo, etc.) Sacrificing flexibility for convenience is never a good idea. Inserting gratituitous and superfluous active devices into your signal chain is an even worse one. Even if it's digitally controlled analog - how many of you guys who are endorsing this concept have any real experience with a box full of dozens or hundreds of mechanical relays? And how many of these dingusae have provisions for daisychaining and sidechaining of devices?
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Post by Quint on Dec 29, 2017 15:58:59 GMT -6
Is "dingusae" plural for dingus?
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Post by ariel on Dec 29, 2017 21:21:16 GMT -6
John, I already have a regular patch bay, So your second sentence is irrelevant and has no basis in this discussion. I also work different than you as in no client EVER brings their own recording gear in to my studio as I deal with bands only that don't have the gear. I also produce full time as my job with multiple sessions going on. The flock system still allows you to audition stuff so that negates your complaint. Ill wait until Jan to see it's full function. I don't know why your so pessimistic when it comes to new gear or others excited about new things to speed up work flow. You seem to be making a claim that the tech in this system is bad and will fail or wont work. There is one thing to bring up valid concerns but then there is the next level of being a Debbie Downer
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 30, 2017 14:55:37 GMT -6
John, I already have a regular patch bay, So your second sentence is irrelevant and has no basis in this discussion. I also work different than you as in no client EVER brings their own recording gear in to my studio as I deal with bands only that don't have the gear. I also produce full time as my job with multiple sessions going on. The flock system still allows you to audition stuff so that negates your complaint. Ill wait until Jan to see it's full function. I don't know why your so pessimistic when it comes to new gear or others excited about new things to speed up work flow. You seem to be making a claim that the tech in this system is bad and will fail or wont work. There is one thing to bring up valid concerns but then there is the next level of being a Debbie Downer A "Debbie Downer", eh? Not really, more like a "Chris Critical". (As a former service tech I was trained to look for the weaknesses of a piece of gear rather than getting all excited about bells and whistles. Consequently I tend to be somewhat more critical and skeptical than the average bear.) I spent a fair bit of time checking out the Flock site, as well as checking prices on similar devices at Sweetwater. The thing is,this thing looks to me like a flashy gizmo designed to separate unwary gizmo freaks from their money (nothing against gizmo freaks, this site is largely dedicated to them) that really doesn't add any true functionality. (I call things like that "products in search of a purpose.) To start with, it's a little patch bay - only 64 points. The bay in my console has 432 plus I've got a couple of 96 pointers in my main rack and an additional 8 input XLR panel for outboard mic pre inputs. And I could still use a few more points. BTW, just curious, but how many points do you have in your "regular" bay? Second, it has onboard phantom power, which is something that you generally do not want in a patch bay. How many pieces of rack gear require phantom power to operate? None that I know of. The only place you ever need phantom is at the inputs of mic pre's, and those supply it themselves - and require an XLR input. Plus, I see a very real danger of acciderntally applying phantom power to the output of a device in a chain and taking out both an expensive processor and the phantom supply in the bay. Because you're physically removed from the circuits you're switching. Third, they tout the abilities to set up complex routings and to "expand the bay with more units" but I can see no way to set up a chain across units unless, of course, you dedicate inputs and output on the two (or more) units to interfacing with the other ones, consuming precious patch points. Those are a few of the technical concerns I see. The there's the basic premise of the device - who actually needs to instantly change patches on the fly under digital control? Do you ever actually change your patch setup in mid song? I don't and I don't think I've ever met anyone who does. And actually with proper planning of channel layouts I rarely find it necessary to change basic patch setups at all. Usually the same processors are used on the same instruments in the same channels of the console. Only difference with ITB is that the console is virtual, the same signal flow philosophy applies. Now maybe, just maybe, if you had a big complex setup with a large number of channels and a mountain of outboard there might be some sense to having several setups stored for recall, but that would require a whole bunch of these little guys and that would get prohibitively expensive, fast. With a modest setup using a few pieces of outboard there's really no point in digitally recallable patch chains - what's it going to save you, 5 minutes? 10 maybe? Which brings me to another consideration - cost. Flock has not announced a price point for this device, but I can't see it retailing for any less than competing devices from other companies, and those run about 5x-10x as much per patch point as a good ole reliable manual bay. That's a LOT of money that could probably be better allocated towards another mic, preamp, outboard processor, something that would actually increase the audio capability of your setup. And my guess is that this unit is probably going to come in on the expensive side - I could be wrong, but I doubt it. There's also no mention on the site of what switching technology it uses, but, looking at the super compact form factor of the device I'm doubtful that they're using mechanical relays. They're probably using FET switching. Mechanical relays have their drawbacks - they're somewhat bulky (even the ultra miniature ones), they require a fair amount of power if you have a lot of them, they're somewhat expensive, especially for good ones, and the do occasionally fail, especially if they're cheaper ones. However they're also completely passive devices and add zero noise and distortion; they also have no headroom limitations. FET switching is different - it's cheap, compact, and requires little power. However it often has more reliability problems than mechanical relays and FETs are active devices. They always introduce a certain amount of noise and distortion and they have headroom limits, which may or may not be a problem depending on how hot your audio lines run. The noise and distortion, by themselves, are negligible. The problem is that they're not by themselves and noise and distortion are cumulative. It is one of the basic tenets of good studio design and operation that you want your signal running through as few active stages as possible. (This is why, for example, that professional quality consoles always have switches to remove the EQ section from the audio path. This is also why it's regarded as good practice to route individual channels to the main buss rather that through an unneccessary submix.) Now, you're highly unlikely to hear ill effects from running through one FET switch, but when you have a bunch of active stages in your path and a bunch of paths being summed in a mix it can and often does make a difference. You say you never have anybody bringing in their own processors. That may be (but there's always a first time), but have you ever had a keyboard player come in who wants to dub parts set up in the control room with 3 or 4 different keyboards, some stereo? Anyway, I just don't see functionality commensurate to expense, unless you want to show off your automated patch bay to your other home recording buddies (which is who I see this product being aimed at.) I mean, if this thing sells for, say, $500, which i think is a probable minimum retail point, you could get FIVE 96 POINT BAYS for the same amount. Or buy a high quality dynamic mic like an RE20 or M88, or go a long way towards a pretty decent condenser mic. Or buy a whole pile of really good mic cables.
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Post by ariel on Dec 30, 2017 16:12:15 GMT -6
Massive post, thanks for the indepth reply ! You bring up some thoughts I had on few things which is why we wont know details until jan. If the system doesn't span and is locked into it's own chassis then it would be useless for myself. Once it is out then unleash the Chris Critical questions to Flock Which would help reveal any issues it may have.
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Post by ariel on Jan 8, 2018 1:21:01 GMT -6
Looks like it wont span so it is not much use for me at this point, And a Switchcraft StudioPatch 9625 is around a grand, quite pricey for a patching system.
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Post by javamad on Jan 8, 2018 3:37:09 GMT -6
Looks interesting. I hope details come out quickly as I am about to buy patchbays for my studio.
I wrote an email question to them asking them to consider a non-phantom power unit to save on costs and make it easier for people who like me have no intention of having 48 volts running willy nilly through their patch bay :-)
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,011
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Post by ericn on Jan 8, 2018 8:36:30 GMT -6
Looks interesting. I hope details come out quickly as I am about to buy patchbays for my studio. I wrote an email question to them asking them to consider a non-phantom power unit to save on costs and make it easier for people who like me have no intention of having 48 volts running willy nilly through their patch bay :-) I understand your reasoning, BUT building all units with phantom could allow them to hit numbers that makes it Cheaper to offer just one type of unit. Anytime you add an option even if in theory your costs to build should be cheaper your cost to sell can go up just because of inventory, real estate and controls !
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Post by channelcat on Jan 8, 2018 19:54:17 GMT -6
I’m a big fan of Bittree TTPBs, but if these come in at @ $1500 or less, I’m interested! Kind of annoying that they’re only 64-pt, but the benefit of not having to keep TT patch points and cables clean is huge for me (smell ya later, Brasso!)! And, you can place these anywhere and everywhere, not necessarily all together and in prime real estate, which means shorter snake runs to the bays!
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