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Post by M57 on Dec 10, 2017 10:11:59 GMT -6
So I'm laying out a pretty straight ahead folk/rock tune in Logic using Drummer and I'm starting with a really basic kick/snare pattern and a shaker. As usual, I'm agonizing over whether I want things to sit 86 or 87 BPM. Then of course I start to realize that maybe I want the chorus at 87 and maybe the verses at 86. Hmm.. The bridge seems to sound better at 85 - but 86 will probably do, and some of the transitions from Chorus to verses feel like they need an ever-so-slight ritard.. Now obviously, I'm splitting hairs.. I could record the whole thing at 86 and maybe the butterfly effect will kick in in a million years and we'll all regret it, but then I get to thinking.. Wait a minute. When I start putting these tracks down, I may play some sections right on, or even push, the beat. While with other's I'm likely to be behind, etc. I know if I was playing this out live with a band, things would be all over the place in an organic push and pull of the beat, so maybe I should just pick the tempo and let it ride.
Is this common? For you engineer types, what's SOP in a pro studio when a band comes in? I'm assuming you forgo the click - let 'em play and then use a beat detective to map things out..?
What about you songwriters who do it from scratch? I mean, I can see if you need to change things 2 or 3 BMP, but do you guys even bother with petty mapping like this?
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 10, 2017 10:32:11 GMT -6
I feel your pain and I don't even know anybody named Monica.
I 'd pick the average beat and do a simple scratch pass and then sit back and listen and see what you feel about it ?
If you really feel other section do need slight tempo changes, easy enough to change the tempo for that section in logic and re record those section within your scratch track, then you have your varied tempo scratch track to develop from ?
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Post by popmann on Dec 11, 2017 15:29:34 GMT -6
I don't see the point in trying to create a tempo map before hand. I would either play it to a click'd tempo....or play it human as you would naturally play it and have Logic map it for you.
I've mapped human tempo forever....but, the only real use for it is so that you can do midi sequencing, which YOU are with the Logic Drummer....but, you asked about recording bands--they play, you record them. Why would I tempo map it? A quick tapped average will get all my delay lines close enough for human beings' timing....markers can navigate sections to jump around the song non linearly. What does having a tempo map add?
That said....it's fairly quick and mostly automatic in modern versions of Logic and Cubase....Music Memos actually does a better job--I'm a little pissed at Apple for that. I don't want to sit in my studio futzing with my PHONE....why can't I record into Logic and do the same thing? And mind you--you can DO it from inside Logic, but it's mechanism and end result is different when it comes from Music Memos. I've done it a lot....and tried all kinds of different ways inside Logic to replicate it.
Anyway--since what you want is the Logic Drummer to play along--just record in Music Memos, make sure it IDs the downbeat properly, and import that to Logic and throw away the useless MIDI bass track.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 11, 2017 15:59:45 GMT -6
Never even hear of Music Memos. Is that the same as Voice memos?
If there were different BPM's through a song, would it have any effect on doing overdubs, or does Logic just play it like it's been told, and you play along, or do you need to do each section with different BPM's separately?
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Post by popmann on Dec 11, 2017 18:05:54 GMT -6
Music Memos is Apple's app for doing this very thing. it's the only reason I bought Logic, which I otherwise find a frustrating and half functional piece of kit.
I don't know what you're asking about overdubs, really--Audio in linear. Tempo mapping is just mostly for MIDI....although, Apple IS trying to make their Flex system turn audio into MIDI--which is honestly why I've bailed. But, that's neither hear nor there, I guess....
I just play my song....start to finish....MM makes a tempo map and drum part, import to LPX where I can edit the tempo map and give more specific instructions to the Drummer Track.
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Post by M57 on Dec 12, 2017 7:39:34 GMT -6
Yeah, I tried MM (I think over the summer) and it felt like a toy. I didn't even bother to try importing it into Logic. I guess I'll have to revisit.
I'm new to this so I'm not sure exactly how these things work, but I know that if I play a guitar part live (without a click), even when I want things to be steady, my tempi will vary by 2 or 3 BPM, and I don't think I want that. I mean, if I want to get a real drummer to play down the line, don't I want to give him a steady click? These days, my MO is to send stems to a drummer to be recorded in his studio, and I'm pretty sure there's no Logic there. I guess I'll have to experiment.
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Post by wiz on Dec 12, 2017 20:19:07 GMT -6
I use music memos...it's brilliant... I have posted about it before... I would pay a grand for it.
Cheers
Wiz
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 13, 2017 5:54:34 GMT -6
you don't have to import music memo tracks into Logic, they are automatically imported and are available as an option to import/load tracks from in your drop down: couldn't be easier
have a quick idea, record in MM, bang its in logic, as a rough sketch track: use it however you want.
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Post by saltyjames on Dec 25, 2019 12:23:27 GMT -6
I also have agonized over very slight tempo differences and changes such as verse to chorus. Sometime my songs have as much as a 6+ BPM change from part to part.
Most of these songs sound stiff if played at a single tempo.
I play parts to video with singing. Then tap the tempo.
Then I use a tempo map in Logic and Cubase.
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 25, 2019 12:28:59 GMT -6
You can just import into logic, right click on region and st session tempo to your recording’s tempo: auto tempo map.
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Post by Tbone81 on Dec 25, 2019 16:37:53 GMT -6
Changing the tempo at sections can add a lot of dynamics and feel to a song, as can playing with the swing timing.
When or how you program the click or tempo map would depend on the song. If you’re going to sequence synths over a part, just need a click to hold together an intro/bridge/outro/etc in an otherwise freely played song, or need a click for editing purposes...each need would dictate a different work flow for me.
For example, recording someone singing and playing acoustic is usually best o let them play freely. Then you can tempo map to their performance and you’ll have a map you can use to add midi parts if you wish, or sonother players can now have a click.
There’s no one way, finding the way that works best for your song and artist is the key.
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Post by saltyjames on Dec 25, 2019 22:58:58 GMT -6
Tbone,
I hear ya.
The thing is. If I do map to a players feel then it often feels a little awkward to overdub drums to it later. It often makes playing the drums to the “varied click” kind of a pain in the ass.
I mean it is hard to play the drums in a verse and then (for me, and even if I know it’s coming) change the tempo by a certain bpm for the chorus or bridge / next part.
Not saying it’s impossible. But it is often tough to get just right. And this is most often me working on my own material!
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 26, 2019 5:40:49 GMT -6
Understood but you could play your best live and then quantize to the grid afterwards or just manually edit the transition bars 1-2 ?
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Post by Tbone81 on Dec 26, 2019 14:12:33 GMT -6
Tbone, I hear ya. The thing is. If I do map to a players feel then it often feels a little awkward to overdub drums to it later. It often makes playing the drums to the “varied click” kind of a pain in the ass. I mean it is hard to play the drums in a verse and then (for me, and even if I know it’s coming) change the tempo by a certain bpm for the chorus or bridge / next part. Not saying it’s impossible. But it is often tough to get just right. And this is most often me working on my own material! Yeah I feel ya. Its always awkward adding drums after the fact. You could always record a scratch instrument track, tempo map it, quantize and/or setup varying tempos, record drums, erase click, and then re-record the instrument tracks. |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Dec 26, 2019 17:25:43 GMT -6
Tbone, I hear ya. The thing is. If I do map to a players feel then it often feels a little awkward to overdub drums to it later. It often makes playing the drums to the “varied click” kind of a pain in the ass. I mean it is hard to play the drums in a verse and then (for me, and even if I know it’s coming) change the tempo by a certain bpm for the chorus or bridge / next part. Not saying it’s impossible. But it is often tough to get just right. And this is most often me working on my own material! Yeah I feel ya. Its always awkward adding drums after the fact. You could always record a scratch instrument track, tempo map it, quantize and/or setup varying tempos, record drums, erase click, and then re-record the instrument tracks. I love doing drums last. Allows me to play off of the vocal track. |
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Post by M57 on Dec 26, 2019 17:37:36 GMT -6
I love doing drums last. Allows me to play off of the vocal track. As a DIY songwriter, ^^this has become my MO. I record as much as I can in my studio using Logic's Drummer, then I ship out stems and a chart to a pro drummer. |
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