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Post by allbuttonmode on Nov 28, 2017 3:19:12 GMT -6
Based on the other tom mic thread, I thought I'd start one for finding good/great/best mics for toms with minimal bleed/off axis leakage.
What have you guys found to be good in this respect? I've been using 421s forever and grown used to them, warts and all. But I think it's time for a change.
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Post by stormymondays on Nov 28, 2017 4:07:51 GMT -6
I'm very happy with my lowly Sennheiser e604, and I even use the rim mounts with no ill effects. Call me crazy!!! However, I tend to get most of the tom sound from the overheads and the front-of-kit mic anyway.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 28, 2017 7:33:48 GMT -6
Based on the other tom mic thread, I thought I'd start one for finding good/great/best mics for toms with minimal bleed/off axis leakage. What have you guys found to be good in this respect? I've been using 421s forever and grown used to them, warts and all. But I think it's time for a change. It's probably time for a change in your thinking about drum micing. Any mic with sufficiently minimal off axis leakage (if such a mic even exists) is going to sound funny when close micing a drum because it won't pick up much of anything beyond the tiny spot on the head it's aimed at. And frankly I don't believe such a mic exists - you're still going to get leakage becauser proximity to other high decibel sources is too close. And mics with very tight patterns usually have highly colored off axis pickup. If you're looking for a more natural drum sound you don't want to close mic. You want to use mics with a normal cardioid pattern an d good off axis response at a distance of a couple of feet from the kit. First thing you have to change is your thinking about the kit itself. A drum kit is an single instrument, not a collection of disparate sources. Leakage is your friend, not your enemy. As such, it needs to be picked up by a simple, but well thought out array of mics, working together synergisticly. There are a couple of approaches to doing this. One is a pair of overheads with a kick mic. The other, which is the one I favor, is a front of kit, a side (FT) of kit, a snare, and a kick. If you have the mics and want to get fancy you can use a kick (in) mic and a kick (out) mic at a distance of about 2 feet with a tunnel to prevent leakage. You can also add either stereo or mono room mics at a distance of several feet. Front and side of kit mics should be good quality cardioid LDCs. I use Pearlman TM-1s, one about 1.5-2 feet from the racks (front-of-kit) and the other the same distance from the floor. both are between 6" and 1.5' above the top rims of their respective tome, adjusted by ear for balance with the cymbals. the two mics should be roughly the same distance from the snare, but you don't need to be anal about it. If it sounds good, it is good. I only use a single kick mic (space considerations, plus I don't have the second mic I'd want to use), which is either an EV RE-20 (NOT one of their cheaper look alikes). A reissue U-47 FET would be better, but I don't own one. Alternately, I use an AKG D12 (NOT a D112, which is an horrible excuse for a microphone). That would be my preferred mic on many kits other than my house kit. Another good alternate is the Beyer M-88 but I don't use mine for that as it's my vocal mic for live performance. Snare mic is a bit odd in my placement. I currently use a Neumann KM84 ( DO NOT cheap out with a 184, they sound like crap.) Placement is up to you, but I have found that optimum placement is on the SIDE of the drum about 2" away, give or take a smidge, off-axis from the soundhole by 1-3 inches, and height adjusted by ear for a balance between top an bottom heads. Yeah, it's weird, but try it, you'll be amazed. You can get a better, more natural sound than any two mic combo and ther are zero phase problems. The drum sounds like the drum. (Yeah, I didn't believe it either at first, but try it.) Before I got the 84 is was getting acceptable results with an AKG C451EB ( NOT the new piece of crap, the old, modular one), but the 84's unparalleled off axis response allows a very natural sounding and (with proper placement, which ain't hard) pickup of the hi-hat, in balance and with great tone. For a room mic I use a U87, which is OK but less than ideal - but I do not presently own a pair of Coles 4058s. My current setup is based on a variant of the Glyn Johns method developed by William Wittman aka "Weedy Wet" , who had a thread dedicated to it on the now defunct Womb Forums. There's an internet archive of it if you know how to use that, but I believe the photos are gone....
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 28, 2017 7:46:09 GMT -6
I'm very happy with my lowly Sennheiser e604, and I even use the rim mounts with no ill effects. Call me crazy!!! However, I tend to get most of the tom sound from the overheads and the front-of-kit mic anyway. e604s are not very good mics.
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Post by allbuttonmode on Nov 28, 2017 8:04:51 GMT -6
Based on the other tom mic thread, I thought I'd start one for finding good/great/best mics for toms with minimal bleed/off axis leakage. What have you guys found to be good in this respect? I've been using 421s forever and grown used to them, warts and all. But I think it's time for a change. It's probably time for a change in your thinking about drum micing. Any mic with sufficiently minimal off axis leakage (if such a mic even exists) is going to sound funny when close micing a drum because it won't pick up much of anything beyond the tiny spot on the head it's aimed at. And frankly I don't believe such a mic exists - you're still going to get leakage becauser proximity to other high decibel sources is too close. And mics with very tight patterns usually have highly colored off axis pickup. If you're looking for a more natural drum sound you don't want to close mic. You want to use mics with a normal cardioid pattern an d good off axis response at a distance of a couple of feet from the kit. First thing you have to change is your thinking about the kit itself. A drum kit is an single instrument, not a collection of disparate sources. Leakage is your friend, not your enemy. As such, it needs to be picked up by a simple, but well thought out array of mics, working together synergisticly. There are a couple of approaches to doing this. One is a pair of overheads with a kick mic. The other, which is the one I favor, is a front of kit, a side (FT) of kit, a snare, and a kick. If you have the mics and want to get fancy you can use a kick (in) mic and a kick (out) mic at a distance of about 2 feet with a tunnel to prevent leakage. You can also add either stereo or mono room mics at a distance of several feet. Front and side of kit mics should be good quality cardioid LDCs. I use Pearlman TM-1s, one about 1.5-2 feet from the racks (front-of-kit) and the other the same distance from the floor. both are between 6" and 1.5' above the top rims of their respective tome, adjusted by ear for balance with the cymbals. the two mics should be roughly the same distance from the snare, but you don't need to be anal about it. If it sounds good, it is good. I only use a single kick mic (space considerations, plus I don't have the second mic I'd want to use), which is either an EV RE-20 (NOT one of their cheaper look alikes). A reissue U-47 FET would be better, but I don't own one. Alternately, I use an AKG D12 (NOT a D112, which is an horrible excuse for a microphone). That would be my preferred mic on many kits other than my house kit. Another good alternate is the Beyer M-88 but I don't use mine for that as it's my vocal mic for live performance. Snare mic is a bit odd in my placement. I currently use a Neumann KM84 ( DO NOT cheap out with a 184, they sound like crap.) Placement is up to you, but I have found that optimum placement is on the SIDE of the drum about 2" away, give or take a smidge, off-axis from the soundhole by 1-3 inches, and height adjusted by ear for a balance between top an bottom heads. Yeah, it's weird, but try it, you'll be amazed. You can get a better, more natural sound than any two mic combo and ther are zero phase problems. The drum sounds like the drum. (Yeah, I didn't believe it either at first, but try it.) Before I got the 84 is was getting acceptable results with an AKG C451EB ( NOT the new piece of crap, the old, modular one), but the 84's unparalleled off axis response allows a very natural sounding and (with proper placement, which ain't hard) pickup of the hi-hat, in balance and with great tone. For a room mic I use a U87, which is OK but less than ideal - but I do not presently own a pair of Coles 4058s. My current setup is based on a variant of the Glyn Johns method developed by William Wittman aka "Weedy Wet" , who had a thread dedicated to it on the now defunct Womb Forums. There's an internet archive of it if you know how to use that, but I believe the photos are gone....
Thank you for your reply, John. No matter how presumptuous parts of it was But it did not address what I asked. What mics have you found to have little off axis leakage? In those rare cases where you'd want separation? To prevent further misunderstanding with you, John, here's my current drum mic'ing setup (as long as the drummer can deal with it): Recordeman setup OHs: Coles 4038 (32" above the snare and from snare to over right the shoulder. Also equidistant from the kick in both places) Kick: U47 FET + Beta 91 inside (no hole in the front head) Snare: Top:Beyerdynamic M201 / Bottom: Beta 57 Toms: MD421s Ambient: Mono Royer 121 (no place for spaced pair at the moment) As with everything; it all depends on the band/sound wanted/the musician. But lately, this has been a perfect fit for the recordings I've done. Now, if I could only find a better tom mic...
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 28, 2017 9:24:54 GMT -6
I'm very happy with my lowly Sennheiser e604, and I even use the rim mounts with no ill effects. Call me crazy!!! However, I tend to get most of the tom sound from the overheads and the front-of-kit mic anyway. e604s are not very good mics. John, why are all of your posts so negative? The post above this one, you're telling the dude that he shouldn't be close micing. In the SDC thread, you commenting about how the 184 is crap and Neumann made a mistake with that mic. 90% of your posts are a constant barrage of how everything sucks. It seems like your attitude is always your way or the highway. How about if you post an example of the stellar results that you're getting with 4 mics on the kit (or whatever combination you're using)? Let's hear some context to go with your posts so we can decide if any of the hot air coming out has merit or not.
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Post by ragan on Nov 28, 2017 10:08:26 GMT -6
John does seem to suffer from the common ailment of Mistaking His Subjective Opinions For Established Fact.
I mean, I get a chuckle out of your posts, John, but you couldn’t do a better job of playing the Scolding Old Codger if you were auditioning for the role like your life depended on it.
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Post by svart on Nov 28, 2017 10:26:26 GMT -6
In the other thread I mentioned the ATM25. it was originally a kick mic, but I never liked it on kick at all, but on toms it seems to hit the right frequencies for what I do.
I'd say that most any hypercardioid mic will work, you just have to find the distance and angle to the right part of the head that balances everything you want from it.
For me and the ATM25, my choice of heads(currently Evans EC2, formerly Remo pinstripes) and my tuning, that ends up being about 5-8" away from the head, pointed somewhere between the center and edge with the mic body positioned so that it's about 2-4" in from the rim.
Also, it's important to note that almost no professional tracking guys will allow the drummer to place his cymbals and such as close as they normally would. Get the cymbals as far from the drums and mics as the drummer can reliably play them. Even moving the cymbals a few inches can dramatically drop the bleed.
ALSO #2, be aware that the cymbals can reflect off the drum heads too! Sometimes you move a mic around and still get bleed, it can be the position of the cymbal causes the sound to reflect off the drum head. Try getting the best tom sound you can from the mic first, then moving cymbals in and around until you get acceptable bleed.
ALSO #3, Most folks who record drums regularly only use the close mics as the meat n' potatoes of the tom sound. The attack and sustain are usually from the overheads and rooms. I aggressively gate/edit my toms to little more than thumps and either add a little reverb to them to "fake" the tails, or let the compressed OH/Room sound fill them out. Then again, I'm usually doing rock/metal stuff.
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Post by drsax on Nov 28, 2017 11:25:06 GMT -6
Another +1 for the ATM25. And I also use the CAD M179’s in hypercardiod I believe. With the right placement they do quite well with rejection
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Post by notneeson on Nov 28, 2017 11:51:46 GMT -6
As mentioned in the other thread, I have had good look with Blue Dragonflies, and Shure KSM44s. Also AKG 414 B-ULS can work well, and have a supercardiod setting. Would be curious to try the Warm 414 clone, or the sE even.
There were also a good many years when I just didn't mic the toms. But I came to regret that dogmatic approach.
Everything is so context and genre dependent that I often find myself frustrated by generalizations— but I would still say that some drummers hit the toms and they sound GREAT. In that instance, I find myself needing tom mics less and less. Some VERY GOOD drummers hit the toms and... still meh. In that instance, gated, close mic'd toms driving just a little bit of just the right reverb can really add impact in a dense mix.
Slight tangent: a drummer brought by the dual element Lewitt DTP 640 bass drum mic recently and it was interesting. In a good way. I'd love to try their tom mics.
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Post by mulmany on Nov 28, 2017 11:58:05 GMT -6
Another +1 for the ATM25. And I also use the CAD M179’s in hypercardiod I believe. With the right placement they do quite well with rejection M179's give a lot of options with the continuous variable polar patterns.
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Post by svart on Nov 28, 2017 12:00:38 GMT -6
I tried LDCs on toms a few times. I really liked the sound, but man do they pic up everything! i think the weight of the larger dynamic diaphragm helps keep some of the cymbal bleed down so I typically stick with dynamic mics on toms.
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Post by drsax on Nov 28, 2017 12:14:38 GMT -6
I tried LDCs on toms a few times. I really liked the sound, but man do they pic up everything! i think the weight of the larger dynamic diaphragm helps keep some of the cymbal bleed down so I typically stick with dynamic mics on toms. yeah - if I get a basher in here, then I would probably use my ATM25’s. Otherwise the M179 is getting me the best toms sounds I’ve ever gotten. Used to use KSM32’s and 44’s on toms. And ATM25’s - But the Cad M179’s Sound better here on my kit as long as the bleed isn’t a big issue
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Post by notneeson on Nov 28, 2017 12:16:21 GMT -6
I tried LDCs on toms a few times. I really liked the sound, but man do they pic up everything! i think the weight of the larger dynamic diaphragm helps keep some of the cymbal bleed down so I typically stick with dynamic mics on toms. I find it pretty situation dependent. I've had a U87 absolutely stink on floor tom before. Must have been an AI... This silver kit, with all those cymbals, made it harder to isolate the toms. This kit with the green floor tom was very easy, especially with the way he set up his cymbals.
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Post by EmRR on Nov 28, 2017 12:16:30 GMT -6
Slight tangent: a drummer brought by the dual element Lewitt DTP 640 bass drum mic recently and it was interesting. In a good way. I'd love to try their tom mics. I'd like to test drive the Lewitt, Sennheiser MKH 800 Twin, Pearl TL 44, and Pearl ELM-A. All dual output mics that let you pick pattern later.....etc....
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Post by ragan on Nov 28, 2017 12:31:13 GMT -6
I tried LDCs on toms a few times. I really liked the sound, but man do they pic up everything! i think the weight of the larger dynamic diaphragm helps keep some of the cymbal bleed down so I typically stick with dynamic mics on toms. yeah - if I get a basher in here, then I would probably use my ATM25’s. Otherwise the M179 is getting me the best toms sounds I’ve ever gotten. Used to use KSM32’s and 44’s on toms. And ATM25’s - But the Cad M179’s Sound better here on my kit as long as the bleed isn’t a big issue Yeah I’ve tried many of the usual suspects and keep coming back to the M179s. I literally don’t like them on anything else but man do they do the job on toms. Something special about them there. Dirt cheap too.
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Post by drsax on Nov 28, 2017 12:46:13 GMT -6
yeah - if I get a basher in here, then I would probably use my ATM25’s. Otherwise the M179 is getting me the best toms sounds I’ve ever gotten. Used to use KSM32’s and 44’s on toms. And ATM25’s - But the Cad M179’s Sound better here on my kit as long as the bleed isn’t a big issue Yeah I’ve tried many of the usual suspects and keep coming back to the M179s. I literally don’t like them on anything else but man do they do the job on toms. Something special about them there. Dirt cheap too. yeah - diddo - I only use them on toms... nothing else
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Post by jeremygillespie on Nov 28, 2017 12:47:47 GMT -6
I really enjoy the M88's on toms since I made the switch away from 421's.
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Post by svart on Nov 28, 2017 12:51:40 GMT -6
I tried LDCs on toms a few times. I really liked the sound, but man do they pic up everything! i think the weight of the larger dynamic diaphragm helps keep some of the cymbal bleed down so I typically stick with dynamic mics on toms. I find it pretty situation dependent. I've had a U87 absolutely stink on floor tom before. Must have been an AI... This silver kit, with all those cymbals, made it harder to isolate the toms. This kit with the green floor tom was very easy, especially with the way he set up his cymbals. The majority of kits I've done have been more like your silver kit. Since I do more younger/new bands I typically run into less experienced drummers who cluster their kit very tightly and use brighter cymbals and have a hard time adapting to increasing the spacing between their cymbals and drums, so I end up having a lot of trouble with bleed.
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Post by EmRR on Nov 28, 2017 13:06:19 GMT -6
Since I do more younger/new bands I typically run into less experienced drummers who cluster their kit very tightly and use brighter cymbals and have a hard time adapting to increasing the spacing between their cymbals and drums, so I end up having a lot of trouble with bleed. The worst of those times, it's always nice to have physical triggers on the drums to control gating. Easier than manual editing.
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Post by notneeson on Nov 28, 2017 13:10:05 GMT -6
I find it pretty situation dependent. I've had a U87 absolutely stink on floor tom before. Must have been an AI... This silver kit, with all those cymbals, made it harder to isolate the toms. This kit with the green floor tom was very easy, especially with the way he set up his cymbals. The majority of kits I've done have been more like your silver kit. Since I do more younger/new bands I typically run into less experienced drummers who cluster their kit very tightly and use brighter cymbals and have a hard time adapting to increasing the spacing between their cymbals and drums, so I end up having a lot of trouble with bleed. Pretty sure silver kit guy went to Berklee! (He's a great drummer, just couldn't resist).
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Post by svart on Nov 28, 2017 13:10:07 GMT -6
Since I do more younger/new bands I typically run into less experienced drummers who cluster their kit very tightly and use brighter cymbals and have a hard time adapting to increasing the spacing between their cymbals and drums, so I end up having a lot of trouble with bleed. The worst of those times, it's always nice to have physical triggers on the drums to control gating. Easier than manual editing. I've actually started doing that, at least with snare. I'll have the drummer make a few hits of varying intensity before we track the song, that way I can replace/subsidize with the real samples. Seems to work pretty well on the few times I've needed it. So far I've only needed to mainly use it to replace flubbed hits and not for whole songs. I really try to work with the drummer to find a happy setup that works for both of us.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 28, 2017 14:25:36 GMT -6
e604s are not very good mics. John, why are all of your posts so negative? The post above this one, you're telling the dude that he shouldn't be close micing. In the SDC thread, you commenting about how the 184 is crap and Neumann made a mistake with that mic. 90% of your posts are a constant barrage of how everything sucks. It seems like your attitude is always your way or the highway. How about if you post an example of the stellar results that you're getting with 4 mics on the kit (or whatever combination you're using)? Let's hear some context to go with your posts so we can decide if any of the hot air coming out has merit or not. Well, his question as I read it was about a mic with a very tight pickup pattern and uncolored off axis response. As far as I know such a mic does not exist and probably can't for engineering reasons. (If I'm incorrect on this perhaps one of our resident mic engineers can enlighten me - I'm always interested in learning from experts.) The mics with the most "perfect" off axis response are omnis, which are the opposite of a narrow pattern, there are very, very few cardioids with uncolored off-axis response, notably the Neumann KM84. Most cardioids, however, have off axis response that varies from their on axis pickup, and the tighter the pattern of the mic the greater the variation. Therefore, if he wants good off axis response, he probably isn't going to find it in a hypercardioid, supercardioid, or shotgun microphone. Furthermore, the tighter the pickup pattern the less of the head the mic "sees" when close, which results in tone that is less natural. I don't think my posts are really negative at all - elitist perhaps, but not negative. I've been a microphone freak for a long, long time - since high school. For the greatest amount of that time I could never figure out why recorded drums never sounded the way I expected them to, but I lived with it, more or less, while wondering what the hell I was doing wrong. Then about 8 years ago, give or take, I encountered William Wittman, who is somewhat outspoken in his views concerning microphones, and in particular drum micing techniques and microphone quality. I started paying attention to what he was saying and surprise!, surprise! (to quote Gomer Pyle) his technique works better than any of the many other approaches I'd used over the years. And it's easy, relatively noncritical concerning placement, and eliminates most of the problems common to many other approaches. If I appear critical of some microphones it's because over the years I've spent a lot of money on mics that I probably shouldn't have because it turns out that those mics were causing a lot of problems I was attributing to other causes. A lot of those were mics that are popular to the point of having become "standards". I also quit paying much attention to most (commercial) reviews, shootouts, videos, etc, because paying attention to those in the past were at best not usually helpful and at worst cost me money I shouldn't have spent. I'll admit that telling people that the mics they've spent money on (and when you spend money on something you're never very receptive to critical comments) is not the way to make one's self popular but I've never been good at popularity contests anyway and really, somebody does have to do it, if only to counterbalance all the BS in common circulation. As fare as hearing some of my stuff is concerned I'd be more than happy to post a few cuts off the album I have coming out soon, if I knew how to post music files on this site (Advice please? I've actually been wanting to post some stuff here for some time now.). It's more or less '60s-'70s style honkytonk country with a bit of other stuff thrown in. However the approach works on a wide variety of musical styles. If you want to get an idea of what the technique can do I'd recommend listening to a sampling of William's discography - that's the target I'm aiming for.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 28, 2017 14:53:13 GMT -6
As fare as hearing some of my stuff is concerned I'd be more than happy to post a few cuts off the album I have coming out soon, if I knew how to post music files on this site (Advice please? I've actually been wanting to post some stuff here for some time now.). soundcloud.com
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Post by popmann on Nov 28, 2017 15:12:18 GMT -6
And then....just as a counterpoint to this idea, I will point out that Al Schmidtt uses 414s in OMNI to mic "tom toms" (as he called them and I giggle)....with the idea being that rather than try to isolate, you want to lose all the off axis coloration and phase shift and just be able to bring it up bleed and all and sound good, only "not the toms are louder/fuller and you can EQ them"....
he uses Omni for most everything with LDCs....but, that particular use was the one that I went "WHA....but....?"
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