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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 21, 2014 8:45:06 GMT -6
Excellent video from Waves...(Thanks for pointing this plug out, Matt)
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Post by svart on Jan 21, 2014 9:05:25 GMT -6
I do this with my DAW without plug ins. I'll get the best sounds from my mics fairly individually and then track and make sure their POLARITY(not the same as phase..) is the same. Once I have the waveforms, I usually zoom in close and mark the crest of a wave during a hit on the overhead tracks. Most of the other mics will have a little bleed and you'll see the same hit, with the same general waveform shape on each drum track. I'll then nudge the rest of the drum tracks to line up to the overheads using the same crest of the same hit. Tada! Instant phase and polarity alignment for close mics. For the rooms, if I use them, I'll decide if the room sound is close or far sounding. If it's too close, you might have phasey sound. If that is the case, I'll observe a hit to make sure it is the correct POLARITY first, and then nudge it so that the crest of the hit lines up with the nearest crest on the overheads. If the room mic is "far", then I might let it stay how it is because the latency between the hit through the close mic and the hit through the room might be great enough not to have an effect. I'll still make sure the polarity is the same as the other drum tracks though.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 21, 2014 9:36:44 GMT -6
So - I'm a little confused about the difference in phase and polarity...Can you explain?
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Post by matt on Jan 21, 2014 9:43:57 GMT -6
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Post by svart on Jan 21, 2014 9:51:58 GMT -6
Polarity is just that. From the origin of the signal, does the signal go negative or positive first? Phase has to do with time AND polarity. If you have two signals, A and B, and they start at the exact same time, then you can measure the difference.
If A starts and goes negative with the crest 1 second after the start, and B starts and goes negative with the crest 1 second after the start then they are both the same polarity and "in phase".
If A starts, goes negative and crests 1 second in but B starts, goes negative but doesn't crest until 1.2 seconds in, then they are both the same polarity but out of phase. You can calculate the difference in % or in degrees if you want, but in audio it's not terribly important to know the absolute numbers.
If A starts, goes negative and crests at 1 second and B starts, goes POSITIVE and crests at 1 second, then they are both out of polarity AND out of phase (by 180 degrees).
I hope my descriptions help. The biggest thing to take from it is that phase always refers to the measurement in time in relation to the origin point of the signal. This is why phase is a misnomer in a lot of audio literature, as they don't mean to refer to the origin of the signal, they only refer to a singular moment in time, thus they really mean polarity..
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 21, 2014 9:56:44 GMT -6
Yep! Very helpful!
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Jan 22, 2014 15:35:48 GMT -6
Wow. That is NICE. I gotta try this.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 22, 2014 16:31:30 GMT -6
Minimal mics on drums are a great first step to phase coherency, and a true drum sound, the modern pop rock drum sound is due to die a deserved death IMO, i honestly believe most peeps have no idea what a real drum set sounds like?? I am obsessed with preserving phase from the get go, parallel compression, nudging, eqing, and any other processing has adverse phase effects, to different degrees, the more u do, the worse it gets, less is more in regard to phase accuracy, recording an entire band in one take, with minimal mics, sounds natural because it is very phase/time aligned, conversely, the synthetic smear of over everything modern music is an out of phase driven virtuality, and I personally can't stand that video game sound. Basically what I'm saying is keeping it simple is the Best way to prevent the need to phase fix, and a natural sound. This plug seems like a convolution plug for the convoluted, but as always, ymmv
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Post by svart on Jan 22, 2014 17:09:16 GMT -6
Minimal mics on drums are a great first step to phase coherency, and a true drum sound, the modern pop rock drum sound is due to die a deserved death IMO, i honestly believe most peeps have no idea what a real drum set sounds like?? I am obsessed with preserving phase from the get go, parallel compression, nudging, eqing, and any other processing has adverse phase effects, to different degrees, the more u do, the worse it gets, less is more in regard to phase accuracy, recording an entire band in one take, with minimal mics, sounds natural because it is very phase/time aligned, conversely, the synthetic smear of over everything modern music is an out of phase driven virtuality, and I personally can't stand that video game sound. Basically what I'm saying is keeping it simple is the Best way to prevent the need to phase fix, and a natural sound. This plug seems like a convolution plug for the convoluted, but as always, ymmv Honestly, I think that even in that simplicity you are over-thinking it, yet under-thinking it as well.. I'll explain.. As a drummer, I've always tried to get the elusive drum sound and I can tell you a few things about it. 1. People know what a drumset sounds like. They just don't know what they need it to sound like, or how to get there. 2. It's hard. this is because even the most "natural" drum sound from a professional usually has a large amount of processing on it. Setting the mics is only part of it and each part is just as important as the rest. Figuring out what advice works and what doesn't is the hardest part. 3. The room and the drums have their own phase issues with each other. Close mics are the attempted cure for that.. 4. If wide open drum tones were the panacea they are made out to be, then there would only be one room with one drummer and one mic that would cure all musical ills.. Of course there are way too many different drum sounds out there, each fit for something, so it's just not logical nor practical to use that setup for everything. Instead of trying to shoehorn the wide-open-one-mic sound into everything, we have to learn how to make stuff work for the song at hand. that means a mic locker full of mics and tricks to use. I guess what I'm saying is that a lot of things are totally over-thought. Phase issues are a problem, but they aren't THE problem with drums. I'd have to say that TUNING is almost always the largest problem with getting a drum sound and making it work. I rarely get phase issues and I'm generally using 6-10 mics and if for some reason I decided not to do any alignments, the drum tracks would still work fine. I do, however, spend hours tuning drums so that they sound the best they can. A singing set, sounds good anywhere. A mediocre-ly tuned set will only sound good in certain instances.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 22, 2014 17:33:49 GMT -6
^I agree with a lot of this Chris, especially tuning, but I think the single largest factor in a great drum sound is how the drum is struck, thats the biggest diff between the men and the boys when it comes to drum sound IMO That said, very few drummers know how to hit a drum and make it sing ime
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2014 8:24:50 GMT -6
Oh yes. The differences in individual drum play are extreme sometimes. In a negative way. I always liked to play with a) drummers, who learned playing drums the traditional way, Jazz, Buddy Rich's drum school, with an experienced teacher b) autodidacts, who learn all the time, know how to tune a kit and how to hit it hard :-)) Too many drummers out there lacking fundamental feel, technique and precision. The horror for the bass player ;-) One may fake over it in the rehearsal room, but in studio - fatal. Reason no.1 for drum sample replacement?
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Post by svart on Jan 23, 2014 8:52:54 GMT -6
I'd say that there are 3 main reasons for drum replacement.
1. Time. Getting drums to sound good is a tedious process. Many things go into this like head type/brand/model, in combination with the drum shell type/brand/model, in combination with the stick brand/type/model, etc etc. This doesn't even touch the differences in players or room. One lug being out of tune can ruin the sound of the whole drum. You can ruin a brand new head by tuning it badly the first time, etc. There are tons of things that take years of practice and learning to get right just so you can sit in the room for hours to make the drums sound good.. So long-term time and then short term time both have an effect. This can also cover the time in the studio too. Say you have a whole record to make but only a couple days to record.. You can cut time out by getting "decent enough" drum sounds knowing you'll supplement or replace later. It's the same as re-amping a guitar, which people do all the time without the complaining and fuss that somehow follows drum replacement around like a bad fart.
2. Ease. Sometimes it's just not worth the trouble. You know that the drummer in this band isn't going to cut it, but there isn't a budget for a session drummer. YES, I understand that whole "great drummer, great room, etc" but that's armchair engineer babble. In the real world, the majority of bands who record aren't world class players, they are just folks having fun. Not only is it impossible for them to pay someone else to play their parts, it's also humiliating and potentially deadly to the band, not to mention repeat studio customers! So, you do what you have to do to keep things rolling along. If the drummer isn't cutting it, then at least get him to play close to "in time" and either supplement or replace, or just figure out ways to fix the drums with tricks. Personally, I've never replaced a drum in my life once it was recorded. I'll find the most forgiving drum and tune it so that it's the most forgiving sound and then use mixing tricks to bring it to life. As I've said before, it's the engineer's job to figure out how to make it sound good.
3. Matching professional records. Someone walks in and says "I want drums that sound like this" and hands you a song from the latest artist. It's obviously replaced drums, very clean, no bleed at all, everything sounds robotic and perfect. Guess what? If you don't deliver, that's an unhappy customer who probably won't come back because they'll find someone else who'll give them that sound. You better do it!
Cynical, I know, but it's reality, nostalgia be damned!
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 23, 2014 15:09:15 GMT -6
This has turned pretty far from phase aligning lol, but I have to disagree almost entirely with ^ I take this stuff very personally, the day someone replaces my drum sounds is the day they die! Lol Replacements will never be as good as my playing, nuance, sound or vibe, for a thousand different reasons. If you CANT tell the diff between a drum program, replacements and a real drummer, ITS NOT BECAUSE OF GREAT PROGRAMMING OR REPLACEMENTS, it's because the drummer/musician or song is a fail IMO, it's nothing more than glorified karaoke! If that sounds cocky?? Then so be it, I'm all about drums my entire life, the shit drumming that's pedaled as "good" in popular music is a fucking tragedy imv 8)
then again, I'm not tracking and mixing bands for a living....anymore, so I guess u gotta do what u gotta do
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Post by jazznoise on Jan 23, 2014 15:26:21 GMT -6
It really depends. I won't need to do for this gig, but on another with the same time schedule as this week I'd be very comfortable replacing stuff because we didn't have the luxury of working any other way. I generally make a note of distance between close mics and the overheads and use the 1 foot per millisecond rule to decide how much I need to delay a mic if the phasing is a problem.
I was doing a free jazz rehearsal a few days ago - so we had brush, baton and sticks on drums (Makes a huge difference with mic'ing imo), Bass, Electric Guitar with loads of crazy effects, 2 Vocalists, Alto Sax, Gong and a Laptop playing samples of explosions, marching, machine guns, conversations, machinery etc.
The room and monitor set up dictated that I use Ribbons in a Glyn John with the nulls pointed at the rest of the ensemble. Minimal bleed and then as close as I could get without losing the balance of the kit. Spot mics on every drum I could stick one on. 57 on snare, cheap SDC's on the toms and my Opus 99 on the kick.
In a solo situation I'd get my drum mics set up nicely and get the phase nice. But I barely got time to get a jist of the drum balance with my overheads, sit with the drummer and tune the ring out of the toms - then the drummer wanted to take the front skin of the kick but I noticed someone had done it to the (rental) kit before so I just tuned the front head to the rear and bang - and tweak close mics (literally about 2 tries a mic). He decided to tune the snare - great, I'll go get the Alto player set up. Straight back over, get the snare mic placement the way I had it. Stuck some duct tape and tissue on the kick cause the drummer and I were both complaining of how clicky the beater made the kick sound. DI the bass, mic up singers and the Gong (Omni mic up way close, all I had left). Get the monitors set up for vocals and the laptop audio. Boom, go. The guitarist was late for the first try so I had to get his sound and gains halfway through the next one as he played (SM58, the mic I didn't use on the gong).
Flying solo in location recording for a 40 minute improv piece, you simply don't have the luxury of taking your time. Everyone's ready now. You walk in with a plan and make the best adjustments you can within your time, you try not to paint yourself into a corner and try and avoid people flooding you with questions so you don't waste critical time talking before the work is done.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Feb 7, 2014 9:42:00 GMT -6
I been using that Waves plugin lately and I'm really impressed. Takes seconds to get a great sounding stereo recording whereas before I'd sometimes spend hours trying to line up mics and still be dissatisfied.
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Post by jeromemason on Feb 7, 2014 16:20:27 GMT -6
In regards to replacing, here's the deal. As mixing engineers our job is to turn a recording into what is the current standard being played to the masses. I'm not talking about specific niche genre's, these types of mixes I treat differently, and they usually spend an enormous amount of time getting things like drums and acoustic instruments to sound a certain way creatively. I take that into consideration and am less likely to do replacements. But when someone sends me a mix and says, I want this to hang on the radio and sound like "XXXXX XXXX" I will take a listen to that artist, and then get to work. If they are wanting the commercial sound 99.99% of the time I'll replace the kick, snare and toms. If the drums sound great to begin with I'll use more blend than replacing, if they are not good, sometimes it's almost entirely replacing. It's not that I just want to do this, but when I turn back on that reference mix and I hear the drums a certain way, I'll do whatever I have to do to make my drums get to that point. I will say that you can hear certain movement in the OH's and Rooms regarding ghost notes and subtleties. A lot of times compression can be your friend here if you're having to do a full on replacement, that will give back some movement, I tend to spend a lot of time getting my OH's and Rooms (if I use them or create my own) sounding organic.
Back to the phase alignment, svart's way of doing this is really intriguing and I'd never thought of doing it that way. I definitely want to give that a go on my next mix and see what comes out. I thought that post was very informative and clever. I like the detail about the polarity being the issue, not so much phase, great stuff svart!
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Post by svart on Feb 7, 2014 21:13:41 GMT -6
I have some sessions this weekend but if I have a few minutes, I'll see if I can bang out a short drum track and then do some mixes with and without my alignment. I'll try to take some pics too.
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Post by jeromemason on Feb 7, 2014 22:34:46 GMT -6
Cooool, thanks man!
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