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Post by aremos on Aug 28, 2014 16:42:48 GMT -6
Nothing wrong with tools and plug-ins and using them to manipulate the sound. Nothing wrong with a Prophet plug-in that gets close to the sound but when you A/B it to the real synth there's something missing. Many of the guitar virtual plug-ins are very good but when you A/B it to it's counterpart in reality there's something missing. Percussive software I would say gets almost to the real thing.
But a vox, a human voice ... and at specific moments throughout a phrase ... and the physical interaction/reactions of the mechanical diaphragm with that voice? There will always be that quintessential factor missing.
(All I can think of: Antares Mic Modeler)
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 28, 2014 17:06:51 GMT -6
eric, no offense, but I found your posts a little confusing. Scientists might offer many clear and concise reasons why they can in fact recreate a sound so well it becomes indistinguishable from the original. As a user with only two ears I have a problem with those statements. Some plug-ins are wonderful, take for example the UAD EMT 140 Plate or the great PSP Oldtimer. I ask myself why is the majority of plug-ins not on the same level?? Another example the UAD 1176 MKII nice tools, but as soon you hit them harder they make the signal thin and small. At least those ones are usable. It seems to be harder to emulate something the right way, at least harder as they want to make us believe in those marketing videos. When I listened to the UAD vulture culture I got the feeling the more distortion HW can produce, the harder it gets to simulate. What is going on is too complex, to many possibilities. Do not get me wrong If the plugs would react lile real hardware. I would sell everything I have collected. The best example for not using simulated gear is amp-sims….. they all do not sound like the real deal. To me mixing/tracking with real gear and real humans is yet not totally out of time.
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 28, 2014 17:15:55 GMT -6
I have absolutely no idea if he pays people to get on his advertisements and say good things, but, seems like they wouldn't be doing it for a free plug-in yeah? I pay attention to the guys that talk about products in interviews and such, articles, but if it's on a youtube video for a manufacturer roll out of a new product, I don't care who it is, I take it with a grain of salt and wait for the reviews. There's been wayyy too many times I've bought something because a big name was on their introduction video talking about it, then later to find out they don't even use it. That doesn't apply to just audio, I mean that's global in the sales business. Someone from GS told me taht they had a conversation with an Pro-AE who was bashing the UAD Lex 224 but he was one of those guys in the Video for the 224. It says it all. For sure they get something for it - GEAR. Have been myself a guitar endorser. Guitars for free as long as you play them.
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 28, 2014 17:49:22 GMT -6
wiz a pair of stereo EMT/Echoplate knock off plates are on my list, I'm going with cold rolled steel and stainless steel, I talked a little bit to J Williams about setting up the electronics for them, we would be going as hifi as possible, or maybe even use vp28 mic preamps? The old EMT's had a couple diff circuits, including tube, mono and stereo, and could be very noisy, the reason they vary in sound quality is primarily due to the plate tensioning going out of whack, they do require some maintenance every 5 years or so, and longer if you keep it in a controlled environment. The availability of a good one will render a plate simulation "virtually"8) unused, 100% of the time. they must be extremely complex to model
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Post by wiz on Aug 28, 2014 18:19:20 GMT -6
wiz a pair of stereo EMT/Echoplate knock off plates are on my list, I'm going with cold rolled steel and stainless steel, I talked a little bit to J Williams about setting up the electronics for them, we would be going as hifi as possible, or maybe even use vp28 mic preamps? The old EMT's had a couple diff circuits, including tube, mono and stereo, and could be very noisy, the reason they vary in sound quality is primarily due to the plate tensioning going out of whack, they do require some maintenance every 5 years or so, and longer if you keep it in a controlled environment. The availability of a good one will render a plate simulation "virtually"8) unused, 100% of the time. they must be extremely complex to model I only used a real Plate 140 once... and I went out into the other part of the studio to see it. Man, it was HUGE!!!!! I didn't stand near it while it was working, I should have. I have a separate building as a studio, and I could put one outside, but it would have to be quiet as to not piss off the neighbours. cheers Wiz
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 28, 2014 20:29:59 GMT -6
eric, no offense, but I found your posts a little confusing. Scientists might offer many clear and concise reasons why they can in fact recreate a sound so well it becomes indistinguishable from the original. mholmes said, "As a user with only two ears I have a problem with those statements". Me too. I didn't say I agreed with the engineering science guys, I just meant it in the way that a rational case can be made. I did use Lexicon reverbs every day for 12 years in a row, and some of those plug-ins are certainly close enough to not make me miss the hardware. That said, I just added a real compressor, the WA76, and it just killed the UAD 1176 plug-in collection I have, so for me it's a use some, leave some situation. Tony, that is crazy cool that you're going to get a plate, just the vibe you'll have as someone one trying to really do it well will help your music and clients.
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 28, 2014 21:40:48 GMT -6
wiz a pair of stereo EMT/Echoplate knock off plates are on my list, I'm going with cold rolled steel and stainless steel, I talked a little bit to J Williams about setting up the electronics for them, we would be going as hifi as possible, or maybe even use vp28 mic preamps? The old EMT's had a couple diff circuits, including tube, mono and stereo, and could be very noisy, the reason they vary in sound quality is primarily due to the plate tensioning going out of whack, they do require some maintenance every 5 years or so, and longer if you keep it in a controlled environment. The availability of a good one will render a plate simulation "virtually"8) unused, 100% of the time. they must be extremely complex to model I only used a real Plate 140 once... and I went out into the other part of the studio to see it. Man, it was HUGE!!!!! I didn't stand near it while it was working, I should have. I have a separate building as a studio, and I could put one outside, but it would have to be quiet as to not piss off the neighbours. cheers Wiz The driver doesn't make any real noise, plus the enclosure should keep almost all the noise under control. You definitely want to keep it out of the sun, and in a consistent environment, the steel expands and contracts otherwise, and causes the plate tension to go wack, i have some ideas i'm going to apply that should allow the tensioning to be very even and predictable, something the old plates didn't do well, the tensioning clips that emt provided had some side pull tendencies and liked to break(by design, to avoid over tensioning and stretching and ruining the plate), but what i'm trying to do should allow very even, smooth tuning, and allow it to hold that tune/tension, they're gonna be fun builds. I'm looking forward to opening up the case and putting it broadside in front of drums, and tracking some verb with the actual drums exciting the plate, i've never done this, but i hear it's a trick that sounds great! we should take thie emt140 talk over here, realgearonline.com/post/6826/thread it's a link to the diy emt 140 project i started las year, i need to get on this again...
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 29, 2014 6:13:39 GMT -6
mholmes said, "As a user with only two ears I have a problem with those statements". Me too. I didn't say I agreed with the engineering science guys, I just meant it in the way that a rational case can be made. I did use Lexicon reverbs every day for 12 years in a row, and some of those plug-ins are certainly close enough to not make me miss the hardware. That said, I just added a real compressor, the WA76, and it just killed the UAD 1176 plug-in collection I have, so for me it's a use some, leave some situation. Tony, that is crazy cool that you're going to get a plate, just the vibe you'll have as someone one trying to really do it well will help your music and clients. Got it takes longer for me I am not a native speaker.....
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 29, 2014 8:15:01 GMT -6
The EMT 140 of choice is the solid state stereo especially with the Martin Audio electronics retrofit. I'm not even sure they made a tube stereo EMT.
I've tuned a number of them over the years. There is only so much you can do, it's still a matter of individual personalities.
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Post by henge on Aug 29, 2014 8:24:44 GMT -6
How much noise do real plates physically generate, outside the container they are in? Anyone built one? How Hard? Anyone own a real, good sounding plate reverb that we could put up against a dry test track (I could provide, say an acoustic guitar and vocal) and then put it up against UAD. a derail of a derail for a sec... Also , it would be great to inhabit a forum, that leaves out the conspiracy theories about gear and gear manufacturers. Say if you own it, say if you use it, say if you have a financial interest in something, don't have multiple identities, be honest and thoughtful and respectful. If you are making a joke, put one of these at the end of the joke... 8) cheers Wiz Totally agree...except I'm going to use one of these... . I like the nose.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 29, 2014 12:36:09 GMT -6
Yeah - how should I break this thread out into it's own discussion? It's an interesting one...Any ideas on thread title?
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Post by jimwilliams on Aug 29, 2014 12:45:58 GMT -6
How much noise do real plates physically generate, outside the container they are in? Anyone built one? cheers Wiz I didn't build one but I have an Echoplate II stuck in a guy's room. It's the model used on Thriller, etc. It was noisy with low output pickups, maybe an 80 db s/n ratio at best. I rebuilt it with low noise opamps and stuff. High output wideband piezo disc pickups are available from Digi Key for about a buck. Once replaced with the low noise electronics I got a 100 db s/n ratio. As it sits it's less noise than any of my digital reverbs with exception to the Bricasti M7. I wonder what the noise specs are on this simulator software and mic/preamp combo? I'm used to 3~4 db mic self noise specs and low noise preamps with -133 db EIN at 50 ohms.
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Post by wiz on Aug 29, 2014 15:50:49 GMT -6
How much noise do real plates physically generate, outside the container they are in? Anyone built one? cheers Wiz I didn't build one but I have an Echoplate II stuck in a guy's room. It's the model used on Thriller, etc. It was noisy with low output pickups, maybe an 80 db s/n ratio at best. I rebuilt it with low noise opamps and stuff. High output wideband piezo disc pickups are available from Digi Key for about a buck. Once replaced with the low noise electronics I got a 100 db s/n ratio. As it sits it's less noise than any of my digital reverbs with exception to the Bricasti M7. I wonder what the noise specs are on this simulator software and mic/preamp combo? I'm used to 3~4 db mic self noise specs and low noise preamps with -133 db EIN at 50 ohms. Hey Jim jimwilliamsthe noise I was getting at.. was external noise... I didn't know if the plates made a physical sound, outside the box they are contained in. Eg if you were physically standing next to it, and someone was running sound into it, would you hear it? cheers Wiz
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 29, 2014 19:17:35 GMT -6
I didn't build one but I have an Echoplate II stuck in a guy's room. It's the model used on Thriller, etc. It was noisy with low output pickups, maybe an 80 db s/n ratio at best. I rebuilt it with low noise opamps and stuff. High output wideband piezo disc pickups are available from Digi Key for about a buck. Once replaced with the low noise electronics I got a 100 db s/n ratio. As it sits it's less noise than any of my digital reverbs with exception to the Bricasti M7. I wonder what the noise specs are on this simulator software and mic/preamp combo? I'm used to 3~4 db mic self noise specs and low noise preamps with -133 db EIN at 50 ohms. Hey Jim jimwilliamsthe noise I was getting at.. was external noise... I didn't know if the plates made a physical sound, outside the box they are contained in. Eg if you were physically standing next to it, and someone was running sound into it, would you hear it? cheers Wiz This is fun, these guys are flipping out over the real deal here, and they really explain well the diffs as i've heard them, especially at 8:40 minutes in. This is the diff between analog and emulation in general to my ears.
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Post by donr on Aug 30, 2014 16:24:24 GMT -6
>09:20 "It's like taking a condom off, innit, really..."
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 30, 2014 21:58:46 GMT -6
Me like. I was trying to figure out which plug-in they used to compare with. I'd love to have heard the UAD EMT-140 plug. Maybe that was it?
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Post by donr on Aug 30, 2014 22:20:49 GMT -6
I recall it was an Altiverb plate IR.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 31, 2014 9:55:51 GMT -6
Altiverb's not too shabby, but the EMT 140 would have been more fun. After seeing that video, if I had a house or a garage studio, I'd seriously think about getting one. I know, it's wacky, but my ears like what they like, it's a curse sometimes.
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Post by jimwilliams on Sept 1, 2014 10:00:54 GMT -6
I didn't build one but I have an Echoplate II stuck in a guy's room. It's the model used on Thriller, etc. It was noisy with low output pickups, maybe an 80 db s/n ratio at best. I rebuilt it with low noise opamps and stuff. High output wideband piezo disc pickups are available from Digi Key for about a buck. Once replaced with the low noise electronics I got a 100 db s/n ratio. As it sits it's less noise than any of my digital reverbs with exception to the Bricasti M7. I wonder what the noise specs are on this simulator software and mic/preamp combo? I'm used to 3~4 db mic self noise specs and low noise preamps with -133 db EIN at 50 ohms. Hey Jim jimwilliamsthe noise I was getting at.. was external noise... I didn't know if the plates made a physical sound, outside the box they are contained in. Eg if you were physically standing next to it, and someone was running sound into it, would you hear it? cheers Wiz Yes, you will hear the music "stimulating" the plate, it is after all a speaker driver working against it. It sounds sort of spooky on longer reverb times. Yes, you can speak into the plate and hear your voice come up too. You need a very quiet acoustical place to locate these things. Stuff like traffic rumble or trains will make them a nightmare to use. It is best to place them on a concrete floor that doesn't pick up floor vibrations, wood is a no-no.
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Post by wiz on Sept 1, 2014 16:23:38 GMT -6
jimwilliamsthanks Jim I think you just saved me a BOATLOAD of wasted time cheers Wiz
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Post by tonycamphd on Sept 1, 2014 16:46:56 GMT -6
jimwilliamsthanks Jim I think you just saved me a BOATLOAD of wasted time cheers Wiz it's not loud though... come on wiz!!!! get it!
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,011
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Post by ericn on Sept 1, 2014 19:43:52 GMT -6
jimwilliamsthanks Jim I think you just saved me a BOATLOAD of wasted time cheers Wiz it's not loud though... come on wiz!!!! get it! Dude, this is one of those if you think you might have a proper place for it you go for it! The 3 of these situations I bit on. 1 the Otari Status for $750! Local I still have the DDA ! 2 The Ampex AG440-1/4in, AG440-8 and the modules of some short lived off brand Console I saved from the landfill for $500 I sold the modules to a guy who bought one of the Boards on Ebay and ended up even 6 months latter! 3 the 12inTannoys I bought just to try that 2 years latter a a Collector bought for 4 times what I paid! The plate will most likely never sell anywhere but local , the key is to be interested , and lowball when you know they just want it gone!
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Post by acegunn on Oct 30, 2015 6:09:20 GMT -6
Looks like this may be imminent, new video:
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 30, 2015 6:33:38 GMT -6
Thought I posted this...anyway, my sweetwater guy called and told me it would be shipping in December.
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Post by Ward on Oct 30, 2015 6:40:29 GMT -6
But it's still nice to see again, as I'm half expecting Mr. Slate to karate chop the U47!!
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