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Post by NoFilterChuck on Nov 17, 2017 17:07:01 GMT -6
Can't you just accomplish the same thing wiht a single machine by bouncing the track you need to add drums to down to a single file, setting your DAW to 32 samples, and playing along with that?
That also doesn't get around the fact of if the brain is sending midi messages at MIDI Rate or Sample rate.
If the brain is still sending midi to the DAW running the drum library at 32sample buffer size, you're still stuck with that inaccurate midi TPQN quantization of your performance.
If the brain is sending out notes at sample-accurate positions, then there is no point to using a separate machine to convert it to audio. Just trust that the folks who wrote the DAW kept the resolution of the incoming midi events sample accurate until it was time to export a midi file or nudge regions/events.
Have you ever zoomed ALLLLLL the way in in Logic, and nudged some notes around? Sure, the midi timestamp for the event doesn't change, but the performance sure does!
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Post by wiz on Nov 17, 2017 17:32:10 GMT -6
Over 25 years ago, I started AS "the midi guy"....ie: the "young kid who knew how to work a computer" all those years ago. The DRUMMERS there were the ones that warned me and I ignored them about the timing inaccuracy. I blew it off...."sounds the same to me, old man". So, discussions like this, I guess, are my karmic punishment for not heeding the word of more experienced musicians (or engineers) then. Yeah, I been doing the midi drum thing since...erm....1987. 8) I even built a e drum kit, before there were e drum kits per se... 8)... using a remo practice kit, Piezo triggers and a Alesis D4. Up until say 4 years ago, I had owned most of the major drum software packages that ever came out.. anyone remember Bob Clearmountains samples, and loading them in via floppy? 8) I did an album remotely with a drummer who had the original TDK20 and we both used the original Superior Drummer program in 2007/2008 I remember back then, there was a demo of NIR Z playing the e kit, which is why we both went that way (the drummer and I ) we were NEVER able to get the hi hat to work like it did in that demo video , and to the best of my knowledge neither did anyone else. Now, its quite possible that the new version of Superior Drummer, and the latest E kits, are marvellous and have done away with everything that was frustrating and counter productive that I used to come up against. That would be great. I like to think I have a real lot of experience with midi and e drums, but of course, new gear as I said may change the outcome nowadays and I am really excited to see how ragan gets on, as we have a similar outlook in some areas.... I was so frustrated by the experience in the end of virtual drums..that I bought one , then another drum kit, and learned to mic and play them to a standard that you hear on my music, which is acceptable to me. It took me 3-4 years to do that.. I, keep in mind, was attempting to make it sound like a real kit, being played by a real drummer. That was my goal. I think if you work within the limitations they have, and use them more with an artistic intent you can be more successful. Honestly, I don't miss the computer issues, the resource issues, the mid editing, the unbelievably complex mixer that was superiors mixer back then..and the fact that the sounds are the same as everyone else.... I don't wish to be negative, just its hard not to comment... 8) cheers Wiz |
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Post by ragan on Nov 17, 2017 17:50:10 GMT -6
Over 25 years ago, I started AS "the midi guy"....ie: the "young kid who knew how to work a computer" all those years ago. The DRUMMERS there were the ones that warned me and I ignored them about the timing inaccuracy. I blew it off...."sounds the same to me, old man". So, discussions like this, I guess, are my karmic punishment for not heeding the word of more experienced musicians (or engineers) then. Yeah, I been doing the midi drum thing since...erm....1987. 8) I even built a e drum kit, before there were e drum kits per se... 8)... using a remo practice kit, Piezo triggers and a Alesis D4. Up until say 4 years ago, I had owned most of the major drum software packages that ever came out.. anyone remember Bob Clearmountains samples, and loading them in via floppy? 8) I did an album remotely with a drummer who had the original TDK20 and we both used the original Superior Drummer program in 2007/2008 I remember back then, there was a demo of NIR Z playing the e kit, which is why we both went that way (the drummer and I ) we were NEVER able to get the hi hat to work like it did in that demo video , and to the best of my knowledge neither did anyone else. Now, its quite possible that the new version of Superior Drummer, and the latest E kits, are marvellous and have done away with everything that was frustrating and counter productive that I used to come up against. That would be great. I like to think I have a real lot of experience with midi and e drums, but of course, new gear as I said may change the outcome nowadays and I am really excited to see how ragan gets on, as we have a similar outlook in some areas.... I was so frustrated by the experience in the end of virtual drums..that I bought one , then another drum kit, and learned to mic and play them to a standard that you hear on my music, which is acceptable to me. It took me 3-4 years to do that.. I, keep in mind, was attempting to make it sound like a real kit, being played by a real drummer. That was my goal. I think if you work within the limitations they have, and use them more with an artistic intent you can be more successful. Honestly, I don't miss the computer issues, the resource issues, the mid editing, the unbelievably complex mixer that was superiors mixer back then..and the fact that the sounds are the same as everyone else.... I don't wish to be negative, just its hard not to comment... 8) cheers Wiz I’m after the good, the bad and the ugly so I’m all ears on any insight you guys who’ve logged lots of hours on this stuff care to share. I’ve toy’d with the V Drums concept over the years but never bit. The sonics of SD3 are what convinced me to give it a whirl. Maybe I’ll hate it. Maybe I’ll love it. Maybe I’ll just use it for awhile until my outbuilding studio is built. But either way I’ll get to the bottom of it (for me and my world). |
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 17, 2017 17:53:51 GMT -6
Bottom line is, Ragan has young children and a new born in the house:real drums are not going to cut it till he gets his new studio built ( go back to point 1, he has 2 young children, oh and in his gobs of spare time, isn’t he back at University taking that light weight Electrical Engineering degree: friggin cream puff!!  |
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Post by popmann on Nov 17, 2017 18:14:07 GMT -6
RE: Wiz (quoting gets super long) The method I've seen work....and am recommending....there is no MIDI recording. No MIDI editing. There are no resource issues. You don't have to wait for samples to load to open your project. From a Workflow, there's really no difference in tracking a permanently set up studio kit....and tracking a digital kit. You're simply using line level outputs instead of microphones. Want to use the La3a on kick? Do it. Want to run the overheads through that nice master buss EQ you have on the way in? Do it. Need of the band to monitor analog? Do it. Your album with the remote drummer....he recorded MIDI....right? Like I said "this will never work"? You're agreeing with me in your argument.  Re:high hats....yes, ideally, you drop a real hat there with a hyperC mic on it. But, not being a drummer, I don't have a meaningful opinion on that vs the latest digital hat controllers-- I'm coming at this from the engineering perspective....if the drummer's happy PLAYING whatever....this is how you record it accurately. But, it should be noted that using the method I'm talking about, versus some cocked up MIDI BS, means you CAN put a mic up for their hat and it comes in in real time along with the sampled snare they triggered. It's all being played in real time by a drummer and recorded as audio along side the bass and guitar....along side the whatever is in the band. It literally can't GET simpler in use....it's just expensive. eKits are a solution for recording a band in places that acoustically you CAN'T....not a way to save money or time over recording a real kit. Which is the part we 100% agree on. |
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Post by popmann on Nov 17, 2017 18:33:10 GMT -6
But, you know what I just thought?
Buy the two pieces. You don't even know if you want to PLAY an eKIt. Run it stand alone on your DAW machine. If I out don't like the feel or sounds you can likely return the eKit and use Sd3 for its ambience mics. If you like the feel/sound of PLAYING it, you can get the second machine to properly record it. If you don't--the second machine won't do a lot to improve that.
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Post by ragan on Nov 17, 2017 18:55:15 GMT -6
But, you know what I just thought? Buy the two pieces. You don't even know if you want to PLAY an eKIt. Run it stand alone on your DAW machine. If I out don't like the feel or sounds you can likely return the eKit and use Sd3 for its ambience mics. If you like the feel/sound of PLAYING it, you can get the second machine to properly record it. If you don't--the second machine won't do a lot to improve that. I’m stil a little lost. I’m not going to buy a second computer just to print the audio instead of relying on recorded MIDI. And I’m not going to use the stock Roland sounds on my tracks. I’ll first try recording the MIDI and using it as intended and see if I’m having the timing issues you’re talking about. |
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Post by popmann on Nov 17, 2017 19:14:57 GMT -6
You should do that.
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Post by BenjaminAshlin on Nov 18, 2017 0:24:16 GMT -6
But, you know what I just thought? Buy the two pieces. You don't even know if you want to PLAY an eKIt. Run it stand alone on your DAW machine. If I out don't like the feel or sounds you can likely return the eKit and use Sd3 for its ambience mics. If you like the feel/sound of PLAYING it, you can get the second machine to properly record it. If you don't--the second machine won't do a lot to improve that. I still cant understand why you need the second machine. Could you elaborate? |
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 18, 2017 9:48:13 GMT -6
My head hurts
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Nov 18, 2017 10:33:38 GMT -6
But, you know what I just thought? Buy the two pieces. You don't even know if you want to PLAY an eKIt. Run it stand alone on your DAW machine. If I out don't like the feel or sounds you can likely return the eKit and use Sd3 for its ambience mics. If you like the feel/sound of PLAYING it, you can get the second machine to properly record it. If you don't--the second machine won't do a lot to improve that. I still cant understand why you need the second machine. Could you elaborate? He's saying use one machine with a dedicated daw that only runs the drum plugin configured as multi-out feeding all the outputs to the attached interface, and then record those outputs with your main Daw so you just have audio files in the session. No midi is recorded. A better solution is to contact the ekit manufacturer and ask them what kind of timestamp they use when their drum brain sends messages to the daw. And also ask the daw maker how they store data that arrives from a MIDI controller, and see if it is stored as TPQN or sample-based |
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Post by ragan on Nov 18, 2017 10:39:21 GMT -6
Isn’t there like damn near 1k ticks per beat when quantizing?
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 18, 2017 10:45:50 GMT -6
Or buy real drums. Or not worry about thousandths of milliseconds
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Post by ragan on Nov 18, 2017 10:59:52 GMT -6
Or buy real drums. Or not worry about thousandths of milliseconds Got both covered. |
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Nov 18, 2017 11:36:17 GMT -6
Isn’t there like damn near 1k ticks per beat when quantizing? As I explained earlier, a tick's resolution is like 25x worse than sample-accurate resolution, depending on tempo. 44.1khz means a sample accounts for 0.02ms. q=120 means a tick accounts for 0.5ms. When you sit there and tweak your compressor attack and release times, you're adjusting by milliseconds. So, saying you shouldn't worry about milliseconds is, effectively, bullshit. ESPECIALLY when it comes to the groove and groove providers. |
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Post by longscale on Nov 18, 2017 12:55:53 GMT -6
Stupid q. I've been out of the VI drum market for too long. With SD3 can I easily slap down a basic kit with a basic groove that gets me 80% or more of the way to something that sounds good? I want something that is easy and fast to just get something basic going for my writing process.
I wish they had a demo that I could try.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Nov 18, 2017 13:34:41 GMT -6
Stupid q. I've been out of the VI drum market for too long. With SD3 can I easily slap down a basic kit with a basic groove that gets me 80% or more of the way to something that sounds good? I want something that is easy and fast to just get something basic going for my writing process. I wish they had a demo that I could try. It comes with a bunch of loops, yes. I believe they used the feature from EzDrummer 2 where you can assemble a songs drum pattern for each section right in the plugin. |
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Post by BenjaminAshlin on Nov 18, 2017 14:28:10 GMT -6
I still cant understand why you need the second machine. Could you elaborate? He's saying use one machine with a dedicated daw that only runs the drum plugin configured as multi-out feeding all the outputs to the attached interface, and then record those outputs with your main Daw so you just have audio files in the session. No midi is recorded. A better solution is to contact the ekit manufacturer and ask them what kind of timestamp they use when their drum brain sends messages to the daw. And also ask the daw maker how they store data that arrives from a MIDI controller, and see if it is stored as TPQN or sample-based Ahh okay I understand now. Would some type of rewire setup achieve the same thing with only one computer? I hate working with MIDI in general,just not my thing. But the irony is, half the drummers I have worked with cant follow a click and think the pocket is in their jeans. I wish I had the midi performance half the time. (I’m just a part timer who works with small local bands.) |
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Post by popmann on Nov 18, 2017 14:59:42 GMT -6
Think of the second machine as a sampler. Hardware drum module with the sounds of SD3 and 16 analog outputs. Whatever makes sense to your brain. eKit>USB OR MIDI DIN>"second machine"=drum sound. How do you record that accurately? How you record ANYTHING accurately. By arming audio tracks setting levels and hitting record. You technically, again, CAN do this with one machine. But, BELIEVE ME.....if you're confused by what I'm saying--you have NO chance of understanding the signal flow in a DAW it takes to record a 14+ multi out VI's audio stream live. Plus, you give up all the other "functional replacement of acoustic kit"--being able to monitor the band analog, process individual "drum mics" on the way in through analog EQ/compression....sub a real hat (or whatever the drummer wants to use WITH the eKit).... But, also as I pointed out--this is how you functionally replace a real kit with an eKit (what he wants to do). But, Ragan doesn't even KNOW if, as a player, he WANTS to play an eKit--there's no reason to go to the expense until he has laid sticks to the kit+Superior--which he can do using his current iMac. If he doesn't like it--he can return the eKit, and use the Superior ambient mic samples in mixing. The software is NOT returnable. I know--because I looked after I got to lay fingers on it and heard how they'd mapped the samples and how NOT easily/quickly it was going to be.  |
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Post by wiz on Nov 18, 2017 15:20:05 GMT -6
Think of the second machine as a sampler. Hardware drum module with the sounds of SD3 and 16 analog outputs. Whatever makes sense to your brain. eKit>USB OR MIDI DIN>"second machine"=drum sound. How do you record that accurately? How you record ANYTHING accurately. By arming audio tracks setting levels and hitting record. You technically, again, CAN do this with one machine. But, BELIEVE ME.....if you're confused by what I'm saying--you have NO chance of understanding the signal flow in a DAW it takes to record a 14+ multi out VI's audio stream live. Plus, you give up all the other "functional replacement of acoustic kit"--being able to monitor the band analog, process individual "drum mics" on the way in through analog EQ/compression....sub a real hat (or whatever the drummer wants to use WITH the eKit).... But, also as I pointed out--this is how you functionally replace a real kit with an eKit (what he wants to do). But, Ragan doesn't even KNOW if, as a player, he WANTS to play an eKit--there's no reason to go to the expense until he has laid sticks to the kit+Superior--which he can do using his current iMac. If he doesn't like it--he can return the eKit, and use the Superior ambient mic samples in mixing. The software is NOT returnable. I know--because I looked after I got to lay fingers on it and heard how they'd mapped the samples and how NOT easily/quickly it was going to be. Good post. also, use it in a project with all your normal stuff going on, and do a whole song to finish with it...as resourses are going to be something to be careful about. cheers Wiz |
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 18, 2017 16:05:50 GMT -6
My brain hurts: thank god for logic drummer ! |
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Post by ragan on Nov 18, 2017 16:18:22 GMT -6
Isn’t there like damn near 1k ticks per beat when quantizing? As I explained earlier, a tick's resolution is like 25x worse than sample-accurate resolution, depending on tempo. 44.1khz means a sample accounts for 0.02ms. q=120 means a tick accounts for 0.5ms. When you sit there and tweak your compressor attack and release times, you're adjusting by milliseconds. So, saying you shouldn't worry about milliseconds is, effectively, bullshit. ESPECIALLY when it comes to the groove and groove providers. I see. |
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Post by BenjaminAshlin on Nov 18, 2017 20:44:34 GMT -6
Think of the second machine as a sampler. Hardware drum module with the sounds of SD3 and 16 analog outputs. Whatever makes sense to your brain. eKit>USB OR MIDI DIN>"second machine"=drum sound. How do you record that accurately? How you record ANYTHING accurately. By arming audio tracks setting levels and hitting record. You technically, again, CAN do this with one machine. But, BELIEVE ME.....if you're confused by what I'm saying--you have NO chance of understanding the signal flow in a DAW it takes to record a 14+ multi out VI's audio stream live. Plus, you give up all the other "functional replacement of acoustic kit"--being able to monitor the band analog, process individual "drum mics" on the way in through analog EQ/compression....sub a real hat (or whatever the drummer wants to use WITH the eKit).... But, also as I pointed out--this is how you functionally replace a real kit with an eKit (what he wants to do). But, Ragan doesn't even KNOW if, as a player, he WANTS to play an eKit--there's no reason to go to the expense until he has laid sticks to the kit+Superior--which he can do using his current iMac. If he doesn't like it--he can return the eKit, and use the Superior ambient mic samples in mixing. The software is NOT returnable. I know--because I looked after I got to lay fingers on it and heard how they'd mapped the samples and how NOT easily/quickly it was going to be. The process of using 2 computers (one as a sampler) ISN'T confusing but your explanation was. It is also fairly trivial to route signals around within the computer from app to daw or whatever you want to need. I guess the advantage is, as you say, that you are able to treat it (ekit + sampler/computer) as an outboard instrument. Ragan - The Roland modules are fairly flexible for monitoring as you can ether send a aux back to the unit. Or use the module as a sound card. Or not use the module at all and monitor with you main interface. (I have a 9mth old so i know how handy a ekit is.) |
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Post by swurveman on Nov 19, 2017 8:06:56 GMT -6
If I out don't like the feel or sounds you can likely return the eKit and use Sd3 for its ambience mics. That's what I use SD2 for. There a are a lot of ambience mics and they sound better than the slate trigger ambience samples imo. |
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Post by ragan on Nov 20, 2017 17:56:36 GMT -6
Well, gonna see if this is a yea or a nay.
I don't have SD3 yet cause I'm waiting to see if it's on sale this weekend.
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