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Post by ChaseUTB on Jul 17, 2017 17:25:15 GMT -6
So I have been recording again recently when I can and for some reason things aren't the same... same exact setup ( minus gtq2, always used Apollo pres so that's not an issue ) ... I am having trouble ... I record a take and can't decide if it's good, which tells me inside I can do better, but then I know I am not hearing the vocal as I would " finished " in the mix so am I fairly judging the vocal.. Then I literally take off headphones and pre mix the dam vocal to see if it's what I want .... bad cycle... not fun... not producing good results ... I am also focusing on the wrong things likenoh that word was sibilant instead of that delivery of phrasing was dope ...
Ok so you see the mind f**k I am putting on myself just by reading that paragraph 😂
I am also trying to push the boundaries sonically with my voice and I don't know how to sing properly so that has been kind of a draw back and frustration as well.. maybe a Bluetooth / wireless setup would help... I don't write much anymore and when I do write I do it separately and record prepared, but the preparedness isn't coming across like it used too.. it's been a good 8-15 months of sporadic recording when recording was something I did everyday before my injury..
I don't know I do feel better now I got this off my chest, and to anyone who can relate feel free too, and any advice / constructive criticism/ pointers etc..
Have you ever struggled with this engineer overpowering the artist conflict lol?
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Post by svart on Jul 17, 2017 17:33:16 GMT -6
Yes. This is one of the biggest and best reasons that artists should NOT be recording themselves.
They should focus on the writing, the feel, and the artistry, and leave the rest to objective 3rd parties.
Somewhere along the line, they were convinced that they needed to oversee the whole production, and that's when song quality dropped as they focused too much on the excitement of recording, and not enough on the songwriting.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Jul 17, 2017 17:44:14 GMT -6
Anytime I find this happening, I have a few trusted buddies I can either have come over, or I pick up what I'm doing and go to their place to track. Solved the problem.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 17, 2017 18:08:10 GMT -6
Vocal coach and hire an engineer, DIY has its limits, understanding and exceptence are the mark of maturity.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 17, 2017 18:39:51 GMT -6
Have you ever read Edward de Bono 's 7 🎩? I think you'll appreciate it. I track myself but follow svart's rule above, I go for vibe and feel and don't worry about perfection. Also, I am trying to simplify everything !
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Post by Bender on Jul 17, 2017 21:57:38 GMT -6
I find when wearing both hats and self recording, the more the limitations the better. After you're warmed up, give yourself 5 takes, 10 max, ALL THE WAY THROUGH. Usually you'll know if you've got it by the end of the day then...otherwise another day it is.
Depending on the song/vibe you should have an idea of any problem area's that may be consistently pop up. Maybe a little comping and you're set.... maybe you use one take as the lead the other as the DT....this may or may not work depending on your reliability/consistency in performance but I personally can line up and nail many a takes without much effort;other times the loose stacked vibe slays.
If it isn't in those day's takes, or after it's comp'd .....then I try to track along to the comp few times on and then off... 1) of trying to nail a super tight DT or 2)Trying to beat the comp'd take 3) using these sessions as the overdubs for any sore spots that may be lingering after all that.
Always song dependent, and usually I have an idea if I'm going for a tight or loose or non-double tracked vibe at all AT THE START. I refuse to use melodyne or anything of the sort. The enemy IMO seem's to be time... DON'T EDIT the song to death. Try to put a time limit on the song's tracking time too. No one said it'd be easy!
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Post by Bender on Jul 17, 2017 22:09:09 GMT -6
Yes. This is one of the biggest and best reasons that artists should NOT be recording themselves. They should focus on the writing, the feel, and the artistry, and leave the rest to objective 3rd parties. Somewhere along the line, they were convinced that they needed to oversee the whole production, and that's when song quality dropped as they focused too much on the excitement of recording, and not enough on the songwriting. Though I certainly understand that aesthetic and find it true for a majority of musicians out there.... I find fascinating are the artists that usually have a hand/vision in the sounds production, and those groups or individuals that are either self producing or mixing usually are stronger songwriter's and arranger's because of it. It's like saying the writer can't be the director...or writer/director/lead actor... it does happen and sometimes the end result would've never been the same had someone not take it from inception to delivry (freelancer in film by day so couldn't resist the parallel industry metaphor) Not the norm especially these days in the pop world but not unheard of...not in the indie circles I travel in at least, but hey what do I know that's a small piece of pie. Just imagine if Eno let someone else dictate the board and call the shots...pr Elliot Smith's home recordings/relation with LC... or how about when all the artist's would ride the fader's and chip in hands pn the mix... or what about that classic story about ol george harrison wanting the lead guitar's on a song to be Eq'd brighter than the Holy Abbey Road coat's said was proper?! Long story short it's always good to have some objectivity going on- that's why it's important to know you're strength's and weaknesses and have others fill in where you are not strong. Have someone else edit your vocals,or mix or master your tracks... it can help!
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Post by wiz on Jul 17, 2017 22:57:19 GMT -6
I have found the first 20 years are the hardest, it gets a little easier after that.....
8)
cheers
Wiz
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Post by jampa on Jul 17, 2017 23:28:51 GMT -6
Yep if possible I get a mate to record me, and then return the favour.
Otherwise I have a wee cry inside, accept mistakes, and know when to stop for the day.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jul 17, 2017 23:53:16 GMT -6
I forgot to mention I produce my own music / beats/ and compose the instruments and melodies. While also recording, editing, vocal tuning, mixing and mastering 🤠😎 If it's not my beat I produced, I usually just freestyle the song, however I seem to put more emphasis on crafting/ writing / formulating the song over my own productions/ beats / music.. svartThanks bud, I appreciate the criticism and understand you loud and clear. The thing is, without transportation, it's hard to jet over to my other studio downtown ( one with u87/ Gtq2/ gtc2 / Adam a7x ) whenever I want too, plus that studio costs $$$ monthly and we need to keep paying artists coming in... I have grown as an engineer so naturally my ears are way better than before and it's hard for me to not spot issues if they are there in the raw Vox takes 🙏 jeremygillespieAwesome advice and yes I do like going to the " other " studio n paying my buddy to engineer. I really like my recordings better at my studio I mix and master out of though.. Also the 87 is in the booth there which is smallish and not what I like to record in, sound good but better in control room. The way the cabling is setup it's a pain to do that though.. Also this studio is in a big complex ( Artists Factory ATL ) and they don't allow smoking weed in the building anymore ( lost so much biz because of this )..🙏 ericnWill be finding a local singing teacher to learn for real.. manipulating auto tune is part of my issues with the takes and not finding what I want / like ... kcatthedogThanks man, I have been going for vibe like you say but that little engineer devil in my left headphone starts screaming over the vibe angel in my right headphone 😂 Bender What's up man, thanks for the very in depth response. Will adhere to the 5-10 takes rule from here on out.. I don't like to punch in for some pride reason I would say 🤦♂️😌 Facts: 95% of my music is not comped or punched in at all, like the links below. I started / learned that way because for a couple years I never knew how to punch in and always self recorded.. So comping a vocal is not something I really do for my own music 🤦♂️ Seems like my workflow needs some expansion/ change ... I can nail verse stacks, however recently it's been delivery and making sure the flow and delivery is entertaining and not monotonous or monotone.. So I may have a verse or hook and deliver it a couple different ways and then can't decide what I like or if I like .. never used to doubt any delivery, verse, flow. I'm making music to gain a bigger broader fan base so that's another thing in the back of my mind ( would fans like this/ sing along/ hoes shake their ass too/ big ballers throw money too ) Without knowing how to properly sing using auto tune to manipulate my singing is part of the issue of why i do so many takes. As I grow as an artist there are certain things I want to do, singing and melodiizing more without feeling like my singing is nails on the chalkboard.. Ppl say it's sounds good but to me I have to slap auto tune on there.. Like Eric said i need Singin lessons/ vocal coach if I am really serious. Thanks 💯🙏 wizHaha thanks bud 🤠
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 18, 2017 1:40:15 GMT -6
What daw are you running ?
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Post by mrholmes on Jul 18, 2017 5:52:08 GMT -6
It helps me to book time with a famous German producer. He is giving good advises and it solves the knots in my head.
Vocals: I cant give a true advise on this issue becasue I am not the best singer myself. I just sing as long as it sounds like the voice which I imagin in my inner ear.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jul 18, 2017 6:02:49 GMT -6
What daw are you running ? Record in pro tools 32 samples
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 18, 2017 6:09:47 GMT -6
I asked cus I use logic now and once I have the basicarrangemrnt worked then I use the arrangement markers to rearrange the song as part of the creative process.
I don't recall this same feature in pro tools ?
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Post by M57 on Jul 18, 2017 6:12:34 GMT -6
Great thread and obviously a subject that's becoming relevant for more and more musicians. I DIY from start to finish and it's the only world I know, yet there's no doubt in my mind that much is lost when the skills and inputs of multiple people are not involved in the project. So for starters, I would say it requires a mindset that doesn't pit the artist "vs" the engineer, but rather focuses on leveraging the advantages of every'ONE' in the room having a singular vision. Anyway, here are a few thoughts about my approach and what I consider important.
#1. Obviously, The Music. Pig in - Pig with lipstick out. Actually, it's even more important that you have your chops together because engineering while recording is a distraction, plain and simple.
#2 Luckily, Technology is making things easier and easier on that score. I can, from my X-touch on a rolling stand, change tracks, enable and disable record and input monitors, set the record cycle, undo, hit "Enter," etc. Essentially everything from the mic and never have to touch the mouse or keyboard.
#3 Workflow and Decision Making - This is what this thread is about. There are so many variables here, and I do it differently for guitar and piano, so I'll just focus on how I record my voice.
It's not common, but I've written lyrics on the fly, verse at a time - so obviously recording through from start to finish isn't an option in that case. Yes, recording all the way through may have its advantages - continuity and spontaneity of performance come to mind. I've tried it, but I find the advantages of chunkifying your takes far outweighs the advantages of the single take approach. In fact, continuity and spontaneity are rarely an issue for me. Actually just the opposite. I find that if I attack a verse or somewhere around 4 phrases at a time, I can zero in on what needs fixing as I go with similar performances and identical phrasing and end up comping from 4 or 5 takes. Because of how small the sections are, I remember how the previous takes went and sometimes I get away with 3 or even 2 takes by focusing on what I know I need to nail. If there's a particular phrase that's giving me trouble, I might go in and give it special attention with its own punch, but that's quite rare these days because I know going in where the tricky bits are and preemptively set the cycle range to what I think will work best.
While when recording ensembles, the first takes usually have the most spirit and later takes tend to be better technically, I do not find this to be the case for recording vocals. I think this is in large part due to the fact that I chunkify things. I'm constantly going back and forth between first takes and subsequent takes, so for instance I can tell myself on a later to take to focus on more on the emotion and ignore technique because I know I already have a good technical take in the bag.
As others have said and reiterating #1, the importance of having your chops together can't be understated. I could probably get away with 2 takes in many cases, but I eschew using auto-tune to the tune of more than 5 or 10 cents. Besides, for the DIYer time isn't money - at least not like it is when you're renting the studio and have an engineer in the room. If you need more than 5 takes, and you're not a working musician/pro who sings all the time, you're going to fatigue your voice period. That's a recipe for a losing battle and I can't image that takes 6-10 would make much if any difference anyway.
Quick story: I've never recorded in a real recording studio with an engineer and all, but last year I had the opportunity to stop by @jcoutu's "office" where we shot out a bunch of preamps and EQs. I sang the same chorus over and over with Jesse at the helm so I didn't have to think one bit about the tech side. I swear I was getting enough out of 1 or 2 takes almost every time, no doubt in large part because I only had to wear one hat.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jul 18, 2017 7:11:53 GMT -6
Chase learning ones limits in life is one of our biggest struggles, funny enough it gets even harder when life places new physical limits on you. To all mentioning great recordings from the past 2 things; First check those credits you will probably see engineer and assistant engineer, what do you think those guys were doing? Second listen carefully to your favorite recordings that were completely produced, recorded played solo. Now tell me if what makes them great is the performance or the recording? Even if you love the aesthetic? are there things that you know an engineer would have done better? I got Here because at age 12 my musical persuits were ended by a hand injury that left me with little feeling in my right hand, I couldn't play anymore but I could engineer and because my physical limitations meant I couldn't play I found a way to contribute in a way most didn't understand is a completely different and just as important skill set that is just as important as a musicians .
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Post by swurveman on Jul 18, 2017 7:15:41 GMT -6
I agree with everybody saying get a recording engineer you trust to help you with your recording. Having to deal with microphone placement while having to work the DAW software transport for recording and overdubbing is a hassle and can be very frustrating.
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Post by M57 on Jul 18, 2017 7:32:55 GMT -6
OK, so the solution is to actually "separate the artist from the engineer." Rent a pro studio and hire an engineer.. and might as well throw in a few musicians, or even better, just get a producer to do all it for you. Correct me if I'm wrong Chase, but I don't think that's answering the question ..or perhaps not the answer you were looking for??
Speaking for myself, the whole point of having a home studio is so that I can walk into the studio whenever inspiration or motivation appears, fire things up without making appointments, etc. and lay down tracks. I understand I'm sacrificing recording quality for convenience, but that just means that I need work harder to capture the music as best I can. It doesn't mean I'm not willing on occasion to ask for help, hire out work, etc., but I think the point of the thread is to find out how to reconcile what we do when working solo in the studio.
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Post by swurveman on Jul 18, 2017 7:51:06 GMT -6
OK, so the solution is to actually "separate the artist from the engineer." Rent a pro studio and hire an engineer.. and might as well throw in a few musicians, or even better, just get a producer to do all it for you. That's not what I'm advocating at all. My view is to have a recording enginner come to the studio of the person trying to be songwriter/artist/recording engineer/mix enginner/producer. The RE's sole purpose is to help with mic positioning and record the takes.
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Post by mrholmes on Jul 18, 2017 7:52:43 GMT -6
Chase another thing comes to my mind. I cant be great in all fields. If it needs a top nothc B3 player, for example ... in this case I hire one. If I need advise from expereinced arrangers I bock time there and I learn something too.
The invetion of the DAW leads us to think we are great at everything. At least to me this was a big self lie and leads to a constant feel of beeing overextended.
Sometimes colaboration is what it needs.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 18, 2017 8:29:16 GMT -6
This is a deep topic for many of us. To cut to the Chase, (pun intended), it's taken me a lifetime to come at music completely as myself. Of course we all begin emulating artists we love, but there's no getting around who you are and what you sound like. You can improve it and make it your best, but it will always be your best you. So my first suggestion, is do some soul searching and discover what you're about vocally and musically, and then learn to exaggerate that a little. The important clue is look for the WHY you do it, the what, isn't as difficult.
The answer to that will eliminate much of the frustration and insecurity and indecision you and I face down all the time. This is why I've chosen to live with the less than perfectly recorded songs I did the last few years, rather than re-track vocals for better clarity. I was at the right point emotionally when I tracked them, and another day, and another more well recorded take won't improve on that.
A week ago, I hadn't tracked anything for a long time, (was busy mixing and mastering), and then I got the Stam SA73 Neve style preamp. I had to make sure it was working, so I did a quick track or two. Except "quick" was the wrong word for it. Sure, the actual guitar and vocal happened nicely in a couple of takes, but it took me so long to fire up my system and set up the signal chain, the levels, and the mic positions, that by the time I finally got down to playing and singing, there was no inspiration left.
Budget is a huge factor in this issue. I would almost never engineer myself if I had the choice. As an artist, I would have been better off rehearsing for a week with some friends and locking out a mid-priced studio for a weekend. I would have had a real record vibe instead of struggling to make my overdubs have that feel at home. But that said, as a songwriter, I need to have a good setup at home for my demos to compete. So there lies the contradiction, I want to be able to track a nice clean demo, and be an artist, hoping one will help support the other. I'm not sure where I've landed now, but I'm beginning to ease up on myself, and trying to just enjoy what I can do here, and hope I can work with a group of great musicians again in a real studio again sometime soon.
The other side of this issue is how much of a PITA it really is to work digitally. We all see the benefits, instant recall of a dozen mixes, plug-ins that sound like gear costing thousands of dollars, no tape to fuss with, but I swear if I'm honest, and look at all the factors and time spent, working digitally takes way longer than working analogue did.
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Post by swurveman on Jul 18, 2017 8:39:53 GMT -6
This is a deep topic for many of us. To cut to the Chase, (pun intended), it's taken me a lifetime to come at music completely as myself. Of course we all begin emulating artists we love, but there's no getting around who you are and what you sound like. You can improve it and make it your best, but it will always be your best you. So my first suggestion, is do some soul searching and discover what you're about vocally and musically, and then learn to exaggerate that a little. The important clue is look for the WHY you do it, the what, isn't as difficult. The answer to that will eliminate much of the frustration and insecurity and indecision you and I face down all the time. This is why I've chosen to live with the less than perfectly recorded songs I did the last few years, rather than re-track vocals for better clarity. I was at the right point emotionally when I tracked them, and another day, and another more well recorded take won't improve on that. I think what you've stated Martin is what a Producer's role is. To have the vision for the song (sound) and to know when you've reached that point. Sometimes the Producer pushes for more. Sometimes the Producer says "that's enough, time to move on". There are some artists who are great Producers - Lindsay Buckingham comes to mind- but many get stuck not knowing when to say "enough", or settle for less than "enough".
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 18, 2017 8:47:15 GMT -6
Good point swurveman. I'm a natural producer. When it's my job, I have a way of making the most out of every circumstance, good or bad to get the best end result possible. But when I'm producing myself, I get lost sometimes. That's why I've reached out to some music friends to lend an ear. A good friend came by this week to hear what will be my next album. One track was just the runt of the littler, it was weak and didn't fit very well. But that song has a meaning and story that was an important fit in the album, which has a story arc if you listen closely. He made a few suggestions that I'd thought of myself, but his fair criticism made me get off my ass and get back to fixing it. (I was exhausted from all the work I'd already done with it).
In the new version, I added some things and changed some sounds, and it 95% better now. Working with other musicians I trust made a huge difference for me.
I'm always amazed by how great Jimi Page's productions of the Led Zeppelin records was. How he managed that, I'll never know but wow.
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Post by Bender on Jul 18, 2017 9:04:39 GMT -6
Always fascinated with the process, keep it coming folks! Even the guys that aren't self recording, chime on in
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 18, 2017 9:29:12 GMT -6
OK, so the solution is to actually "separate the artist from the engineer." Rent a pro studio and hire an engineer.. and might as well throw in a few musicians, or even better, just get a producer to do all it for you. That's not what I'm advocating at all. My view is to have a recording enginner come to the studio of the person trying to be songwriter/artist/recording engineer/mix enginner/producer. The RE's sole purpose is to help with mic positioning and record the takes. You don't need the engineer all the time, if vocals are the problem just for vocals! Plus as an engineer I have often in fact probably bitten the hand that feed me by showing an artist what I am doing, many of us who grew up in commercial studios I learned as much from seeing others do as I did from doing myself. Also I do believe that one of the biggest problems of modern music is the lack of true independent feed back in the process, if it's just you and those who have a non commercial relationship are more likely to put their relationship with you above honesty. Having honest professional feedback even for one step of the process is worth its weight in gold!
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