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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 8, 2014 9:32:39 GMT -6
I see a Burl/ Ross Martin 4222 shootout in the near future. +1 This would be nice, it would actually be a 3 way shoot considering JK has the symph... Btw, I'm interested in hearing JKs opinion over files, although files would be cool also. I would also like to hear ur opinion on a stacked track mix, with about 8 tracks, ime, this is when I hear the biggest diffs in detail, clarity and punch with interfaces
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Post by tasteliketape on Jan 8, 2014 9:39:22 GMT -6
So could you not use vp28 (or your choice) an any converter to do same thing?
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 8, 2014 9:52:16 GMT -6
So could you not use vp28 (or your choice) an any converter to do same thing? For me, this is exactly why I have not entertained the idea of a burl, but of course to each his own.
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Post by popmann on Jan 8, 2014 10:22:31 GMT -6
While I see the logic, the answer seems to be no.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 8, 2014 10:29:56 GMT -6
While I see the logic, the answer seems to be no. Why does the answer seem to be no? I'm confused about why you don't think this would work similarly. I imagine that the Burl BX1 tranny may have better bandwidth than their BX3, thus suiting a full range of sources better, but we don't any evidence that using a B1 between your pre and converter would be significantly different.
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Post by popmann on Jan 8, 2014 10:47:08 GMT -6
Tape guys use them for transfers. The color they want from pres and/or the tape is already there...other converters LOSE something in the transfer. And/or guys monitoring on a classA desk no longer dreading playback. It's about what's lost. Not color when pushed.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 8, 2014 10:55:18 GMT -6
popmann I'm just basing my thoughts on a previous quote of yours....
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 8, 2014 11:04:34 GMT -6
It would almost certainly be better?? A vp28 in unity/line mode is awesome, and the versatility will smoke a transformer strapped to the input of an A/D converter don't u think?
But I'm not sure I'm understanding the statement.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 8, 2014 11:24:27 GMT -6
pops just earned an additional title. "He who is obtuse". ![8-)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/cool.png)
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 8, 2014 12:38:53 GMT -6
So - I returned the Burl and the Presonus...GC isn't very happy with me right now ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) Anyway, after fiddling with trying to connect the two and finally getting it to work, I just found the workflow and learning curve to be a NIGHTMARE and any improvements in the sound to be not worth the negatives in workflow. The Burl did see to be a little thicker and a little more smooth in the upper mids...but we're talking really small differences. I'm sure that stacked, maybe the differences would have been larger. So, my final decision was probably based less on what the Burl sounded like and more about having to use another interface to connect it to as well as losing the DA from the Symphony. The Emotiva is an excellent DAC, but not quite as good as the Symphony. For the small number of audio tracks that I track here at home, the Burl being the price that it is and just being an ADC, just wasn't for me. Now, when the ship comes in, I wouldn't be opposed to buying a Burl Mothership and calling it a day...but the old bank account isn't allowing that right now.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 8, 2014 12:58:53 GMT -6
So - I returned the Burl and the Presonus...GC isn't very happy with me right now ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) Anyway, after fiddling with trying to connect the two and finally getting it to work, I just found the workflow and learning curve to be a NIGHTMARE and any improvements in the sound to be not worth the negatives in workflow. The Burl did see to be a little thicker and a little more smooth in the upper mids...but we're talking really small differences. I'm sure that stacked, maybe the differences would have been larger. So, my final decision was probably based less on what the Burl sounded like and more about having to use another interface to connect it to as well as losing the DA from the Symphony. The Emotiva is an excellent DAC, but not quite as good as the Symphony. For the small number of audio tracks that I track here at home, the Burl being the price that it is and just being an ADC, just wasn't for me. Now, when the ship comes in, I wouldn't be opposed to buying a Burl Mothership and calling it a day...but the old bank account isn't allowing that right now. You gave up on the Burl after using it for a day? Now that's quitting. Gotta give it at least a week to break in and get a feel for it. GC gives you 30 days right? Why would you quit so early?
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Post by popmann on Jan 8, 2014 13:36:08 GMT -6
What is in between your CAPI and the AD chip? You understand that the Ross Martin...or Symphony...whatever is not a chip, right? They all use the same chip...so, what makes the difference in sound? I don't know what's hard to understand about a classA line amp feeding a chip being different than a classA line amp feeding another line amp feeding a chip.
I don't think I should get that title quite yet. But, sure...if that makes you feel better. I maybe should get it for a new thread I'm about to start, but...
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Post by dandeurloo on Jan 8, 2014 13:59:36 GMT -6
John I would think you might like trying different clocks for you Symphony units. I hear the 10M is really nice upgrade for them and basically everything else. I personally have notices massive difference with clocks. Maybe a BLA clock could be demoed and see if it gives you any gains at a seriously reduced price. I think it would be worth a shot if you know anyone who has one or a 10M.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jan 8, 2014 14:31:38 GMT -6
What is in between your CAPI and the AD chip? You understand that the Ross Martin...or Symphony...whatever is not a chip, right? They all use the same chip...so, what makes the difference in sound? I don't know what's hard to understand about a classA line amp feeding a chip being different than a classA line amp feeding another line amp feeding a chip. I don't think I should get that title quite yet. But, sure...if that makes you feel better. I maybe should get it for a new thread I'm about to start, but... I believe we were referring to the burl with its input tranny...? Tantamount to a vp28 at unity into a symphony..., cept probably not as good(if your familiar with the vp28, there is NO way a simple 1:1 input tranny strapped to an A/D is going to measure up to piece like that) that said, I haven't used the burl, so my words are pure conjecture with a sprinkle of I'll bet dollars to doughnuts on top 8)
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 8, 2014 14:54:37 GMT -6
What is in between your CAPI and the AD chip? You understand that the Ross Martin...or Symphony...whatever is not a chip, right? They all use the same chip...so, what makes the difference in sound? I don't know what's hard to understand about a classA line amp feeding a chip being different than a classA line amp feeding another line amp feeding a chip. I don't think I should get that title quite yet. But, sure...if that makes you feel better. I maybe should get it for a new thread I'm about to start, but... For me, I'm just thinking that whatever built-in line amp that is pre-conversion-chip in the Symphony isn't really adding much to the tone. I expect that the line amp in the standalone Burl B1 would be similar to the line amp in the Burl B2 (could the Burl B2 just be a pair of B1's (B1+B1=B2?) built into a box with a chip after them?). Really, I have no idea though. I haven't heard a Burl anything, so maybe it's really not anything similar, but I think that my reasoning on why they would be similar is sound. I'm just curious if anyone has tried and compared. To come out and say... ...doesn't add up. Do you think that the line amp between the Burl pre and the converter in the Symphony is taking something away from the sound? Or is it that you just think the line amp built into the B2 is just at a different level than the B1? Is there something else flawed with what I'm thinking that I'm just missing? I'm not trying to start a war or discredit the B2 or Symphony or anything like that. I'm just curious about the idea of running multiple line amps.
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Post by popmann on Jan 8, 2014 15:19:02 GMT -6
Yes, The Symphony and ALL converters have a line amp. Yes, I think it's taking away. Or "taking away" is more subjectively judgmental than I intend--it's not the SAME as using a classA transformer line amp to feed the AD CHIP...not unit...chip...a classA transformer circuit feeding the chip is NOT electrically going to be the same as a ClassA mic preamp feeding an not class A line stage feeding a chip.
Have you listened to Cowboy's clips? Are they still up? The Symphony sounds like EVERY converter I've ever used....which isn't to say bad. And considering he did it at single sample rate, better than most converters I've used...and the Burl sounds like the output of the preamp before it got converted. Which is in line with why people would be using them for tape transfers. They have the color they want...they just want it retained into digital. I mean, I wouldn't spend 5min listening to Jack White's music...but, there's something in common with Rich's conversion designs--people who swear by tape and are willing to put up with it's cost and limitations and happy with them--be it the 2192 or Burl. So many people see tape as a "color" in it's abuse--and it certainly is that--this won't "sound like tape". Unless it CAME from tape. People MIGHT subjectively prefer the Symphony--as it sounds like a bright PCM unit. And that's the sound of now.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 8, 2014 15:44:04 GMT -6
So you're saying that the Burl retains info that the other converters are dropping because of it's class A design rather than most other boxes using lower quality line amps feeding the converter chips. I can see where you're coming from.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 8, 2014 16:21:04 GMT -6
This has devolved into a total nerd fest...
I just had both and literally spent about 10 hours dicking around with them. Yes, the Burl sounded a little better...but man, I could tell the second I started working with the Presonus software that I didn't want to deal with it...And honestly, I was pushing my budget even going with that $500 piece. If money was no object, I would have kept the Burl and Symphony...but money is an object. The convenience of the Symphony became very apparent to me...
So sue me. I'm the one dude that took back the Burl.
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Post by popmann on Jan 8, 2014 16:31:56 GMT -6
Yes, it has...and I should point out that I'm talking from the nerd part of my ass-having not used it and honestly it's not like I have a classA console here to run an actual test of that...I seriously have trouble believing it's that big of deal--but, I do understand it's a different thing, inserting a little electrically balanced line amp. It's also a 12 year old AD chip. And my understanding, is a pretty expensive one. Otherwise--he didn't choose it for cost....NOR is the new kid on the block in terms of on chip filtering. Anyway-I'm simply pointing out that technically it's a different thing that adding a transformer mic preamp to a line level (chip based?) amp feeding an AD chip. And the 2192, as much as people talk about it being colored, when they did the (albeit flawed) loopback testing over at the purple site came up as one of the most accurate conversions next to MUCH newer units. One of the stipulations of that test, though, is they calibrated things at 18dbfs=0db, I believe....which is in keeping with what Rich&Co claims--which is it's incredibly accurate at calibrated (-18) levels--it just starts to saturate and "bark" as you push it harder. Most transformer MIC amps are NOT linear at moderate levels, IME, but they also have the whole impedance to factor in, so that's also not fair. I know I've mixed 2192 tracks (of acoustic instruments recorded at proper levels) and it's truly errie. Shit sounds real-like it's in the room. And digital EQ affected the differently. FWIW. Hey...maybe I should go down to the Criminals and see if I can get an open box deal!
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 8, 2014 16:32:28 GMT -6
John I would think you might like trying different clocks for you Symphony units. I hear the 10M is really nice upgrade for them and basically everything else. I personally have notices massive difference with clocks. Maybe a BLA clock could be demoed and see if it gives you any gains at a seriously reduced price. I think it would be worth a shot if you know anyone who has one or a 10M. That would be great, but the Symphony won't EXT clock in USB mode. I'd have to buy the Thunderbridge for $1000. I really think I'm set on the Symphony until the ship comes in. Then, screw the Burl, I'm buying Weiss...no wait...Lavry...or...Prism...
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 8, 2014 16:38:18 GMT -6
Hey...maybe I should go down to the Criminals and see if I can get an open box deal! Bet you they slap the tape back on it and don't sell it as open box...
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 8, 2014 16:43:44 GMT -6
Just looked up the 10M clock... $6000... dandeurloo, apparently you and I run in different circles... ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png)
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Post by popmann on Jan 8, 2014 16:48:15 GMT -6
external clocking an AD is BS from a technical standpoint. You may like the sound better (since that's subjective)....but, I've never heard anyone but Antelope (and then their users) claim that's actually an improvement for an AD. But, I've also not experienced the wonder of Antelope clocking so....you know...
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 8, 2014 16:50:53 GMT -6
I thought the Lavry Blue stuff was pretty awesome...Wonder what that Lavry Gold sounds like?
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Post by Guitar on Jan 8, 2014 16:57:19 GMT -6
Yes, The Symphony and ALL converters have a line amp. Yes, I think it's taking away. Or "taking away" is more subjectively judgmental than I intend--it's not the SAME as using a classA transformer line amp to feed the AD CHIP...not unit...chip...a classA transformer circuit feeding the chip is NOT electrically going to be the same as a ClassA mic preamp feeding an not class A line stage feeding a chip. Have you listened to Cowboy's clips? Are they still up? The Symphony sounds like EVERY converter I've ever used....which isn't to say bad. And considering he did it at single sample rate, better than most converters I've used...and the Burl sounds like the output of the preamp before it got converted. Which is in line with why people would be using them for tape transfers. They have the color they want...they just want it retained into digital. I mean, I wouldn't spend 5min listening to Jack White's music...but, there's something in common with Rich's conversion designs--people who swear by tape and are willing to put up with it's cost and limitations and happy with them--be it the 2192 or Burl. So many people see tape as a "color" in it's abuse--and it certainly is that--this won't "sound like tape". Unless it CAME from tape. People MIGHT subjectively prefer the Symphony--as it sounds like a bright PCM unit. And that's the sound of now. This is fascinating! I'm an electrical nerd.
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