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Post by Martin John Butler on May 2, 2017 9:22:26 GMT -6
There's always someone who feels they simply have to call bullshit on shootouts, (not referring to anyone here). I feel the opposite, and find them more often than not, helpful and enlightening.
When I chose the Blackspade UM-17 almost five years ago when looking for a serious mic under $1,000, I had only heard a few sound files and read a little about it. At that time, it was essentially the $1,895. Telefunken AK47, put together by hand by Oliver Archut with a different badge. When I got it home to try for myself, it sounded exactly like the files I'd heard and used to make my decision.
This wasn't one isolated shootout that was good, there have been many more shootouts that have helped me a lot.
B&H's mic shootout's are reasonably informative too.
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Post by timcampbell on May 2, 2017 11:48:49 GMT -6
I just had a brand new Avantone CV12 here. Stock it sounded rather poor I thought. I opened it and found that they use a chinese K87 type capsule. I had assumed it would at least be edge terminated. I changed out the capsule and replaced the EH 6072 with a GE JAN 6072. The difference was quite dramatic. It ended up sounding like a great microphone.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,011
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Post by ericn on May 2, 2017 12:51:45 GMT -6
I just had a brand new Avantone CV12 here. Stock it sounded rather poor I thought. I opened it and found that they use a chinese K87 type capsule. I had assumed it would at least be edge terminated. I changed out the capsule and replaced the EH 6072 with a GE JAN 1072. The difference was quite dramatic. It ended up sounding like a great microphone. I have often wondered how much simply be part of a large shootout like this drives sales, There are those who will see inclusion as an unwritten endorsement. Of course I have a guy who keeps trying to pay a debt with one of these avantones !
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Post by Johnkenn on May 2, 2017 12:52:05 GMT -6
It's all about the cap bout the cap no circuit...
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 2, 2017 13:45:30 GMT -6
As a recovered audiophile, I remember many discussions regarding cabling. Some integrated components actually had an advantage to separates because you didn't have to fuss with choosing the cable that connects them. Every choice seemed to sound a little different.
Even from the little I could hear last night of the Chandler, (I'll listen more tomorrow), there was something I hadn't quite heard before, and the built in preamp is my guess as to why it seems to sound like the holy grail we've been looking for.
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Post by indiehouse on May 2, 2017 14:15:29 GMT -6
...seems to sound like the holy grail we've been looking for. You're killing me, man.
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 2, 2017 14:19:39 GMT -6
I'm dyin' here too..
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Post by Vincent R. on May 2, 2017 15:00:34 GMT -6
I just had a brand new Avantone CV12 here. Stock it sounded rather poor I thought. I opened it and found that they use a chinese K87 type capsule. I had assumed it would at least be edge terminated. I changed out the capsule and replaced the EH 6072 with a GE JAN 6072. The difference was quite dramatic. It ended up sounding like a great microphone. I had two TNC ACM-1200 microphones. They are essentially the same mic as the Avantone CV-12. I sent both to aamicrophones . One became an Advanced Audio CM12le, the other a CM251. The capsules were both changed to Dave's AK12 style capsules, and the circuits upgraded. The difference was huge. More balanced sound, more low end, bright with no hasrshness. They can be a nice platform for upgrades.
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Post by nick8801 on May 3, 2017 7:28:29 GMT -6
Yeah that Chandler is really something special....if only I had the dough!
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Post by donr on May 3, 2017 8:04:41 GMT -6
John, are you still digging the Upton?
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 3, 2017 8:06:01 GMT -6
timcampbell, I sent you a PM. :-)
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Post by Johnkenn on May 3, 2017 8:37:47 GMT -6
John, are you still digging the Upton? Yeah - it's fantastic.
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 3, 2017 9:23:55 GMT -6
Yes, it did sound great on the files you posted a while back, but is it The One?
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Post by Bob Olhsson on May 3, 2017 9:29:28 GMT -6
I attended Lynn's shootout of converters. He was very thorough and understands the importance of matching levels to less than .1 dB. It's a very sad statement that so many highly talented people have needed to move into the gear business.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on May 3, 2017 9:40:30 GMT -6
I should comment that in my experience the biggest single cause of audio degradation is analog cabling. The original location for a mike preamp was right inside a condenser mike. The mike preamp as we know it was designed for ribbon microphones. This is why I believe audio over ip is the future as people figure out that it sounds better.
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 3, 2017 10:59:41 GMT -6
Good to know Bob, thanks.
I gave a second listen, and it's funny, but this shootout follows my impressions of the Vintage King shootout. Forgetting the Chandler for a second, the Telefunen U47 is amazing. It's hard to say if the Chandler isn't as quite good, or if it's even better. They're both just incredible. I was leaning toward the U47 for a few seconds, but then I noticed how the Chandler sits in the mix, almost magically. There's something about its tone that fits in so well in that mix, it's in there glued like crazy glue, so I'd probably pick the Chandler. But of course, at that level, if I could afford them, I'd want to try both to compare for personal compatibility.
The Manley Reference was again, top drawer. Some of the other mics are really good too.
The Warm 87 fared well I think.
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Post by aamicrophones on May 3, 2017 11:22:30 GMT -6
I just had a brand new Avantone CV12 here. Stock it sounded rather poor I thought. I opened it and found that they use a chinese K87 type capsule. I had assumed it would at least be edge terminated. I changed out the capsule and replaced the EH 6072 with a GE JAN 6072. The difference was quite dramatic. It ended up sounding like a great microphone. I had two TNC ACM-1200 microphones. They are essentially the same mic as the Avantone CV-12. I sent both to aamicrophones . One became an Advanced Audio CM12le, the other a CM251. The capsules were both changed to Dave's AK12 style capsules, and the circuits upgraded. The difference was huge. More balanced sound, more low end, bright with no hasrshness. They can be a nice platform for upgrades.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on May 3, 2017 12:21:09 GMT -6
The original U47 was intended to be used without a preamp.
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Post by aamicrophones on May 3, 2017 12:48:59 GMT -6
Hi Guys, I don't like to "kick a man when he's down" but there is a real flaw in the Avantone CV12 and the TNC ACM-1200 circuit.
As, others have noted it uses a economy Chinese K87 capsule which is skinned with 6 micron mylar and we do use selected versions of this capsule in our CM47Fet microphone. However, the CM47fet like the U87 uses de-emphasis to reduce the drastic rise above 10khz that an 87 capsule is noted for. Select and de-emphasize is the secret with the K67/K87 typ capsules.
There is no de-emphasis in the CV12 circuit and it also is fitted with an economical single bobbin transformer.
The circuit has a cathode output stage but was implemented incorrectly to provide the HP filter option.
Whoever, designed the HP filter broke the direct connection between the plate of the first stage and the grid of the 2nd to insert a switchable capacitor value to roll-out the very low frequency content.
The CF output stage now has to be biased with a resistor network and this reduces the headroom by nearly 1/20th and the result is the positive going waveform distorts much sooner than the negative going waveform.
You can clearly see this if you put a sine wave into the circuitry or put it in front of a kick drum and you will see the top waveform square off much, much sooner than the bottom waveform.
We can check the integrity of the microphone audio circuity by disconnecting the capsule and inserting a sine wave, pink noise or music source into the input grid of the first stage.
Now, its typical for a class "A" tube circuit to be a little asymmetrical but the CV12 circuit is way beyond the norms of good tube design.
What we do is put the CV12 circuit back to being a class "A" CCDA tube circuit that we use in our 9 pattern tube microphones, I move the HP filter postion to the cathode output section just before the output transformer.
This is a slight trade-off as different preamp loading of the microphones output stage can cause the HP filter to vary slightly but the CCDA circuit has a 600 ohm output impedance so its much more forgiving than a single stage circuit with a typical 10K to 15K impedance.
So, when you couple a capsule with a 9db rise at 12khz into a circuit with reduced headroom and a economical output transformer then it will sound blurry and grainy even with moderate sound pressure levels to say the least.
When you put someone like Vincent in front of it with his incredible pipes, it won't matter what tube you put in, it its not going to reproduce correctly the sound reaching the microphones capsule and would not be a useful audio tool in my experience.
The sound will also vary much more drastically between pianissimo passages and fortissimo passages even with Vincent's excellent microphone technique compared to a "properly" designed microphone circuit.
My sensibilities are more inclined to save the money on the chrome headgrill, red sparkle paint and wooden case inside the road case and optimize the circuit but that's just my philosophy.
We are just in the process of moving our storage, assembly, testing and shipping to a slightly larger but modest facility that will give us more room to assemble preamps and get microphones ready for shipping.
I will keep my shop here for R&D and the Studio for testing microphones in the "real world". Folks will still be able to drop my my home looking out over lake Okanagan and try out some microphone in the studio.
Once we get organized after we complete the move then I could find my notes on the CV12 circuit and the changes that we made and put them up in a post.
The "baby does not have to thrown out with the bath water". Simply removing 7 components, moving the HP filter to the cathode output stage, replacing the capsule and tube bring the microphone into the "world class" realm.
You can also keep the K87 type capsule if you just want to upgrade the circuit, if you place a 1000pf from plate of the first stage to ground it will tame the rise of the 87 capsule. If you want it more C800 like then use a 330pf to 470pf.
Cheers, Dave
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Post by aamicrophones on May 3, 2017 14:16:27 GMT -6
Lynn, is a lovely guy who was very impressed with our CM67se and Sweetwater's recording Studio bought a couple on his recommendation.
Sweetwater actually approached us about them becoming a dealer for our microphones at Namm last year but my feelings were at this time, if we increase sales to that extent we couldn't keep up the quality control.
How we shootout microphones here in my studio is how we use to comp tracks back in the day. I record say, four different microphones at the same time from the same source through the same preamp each on separate tracks of my Radar.
The tracks come back up on the MCI/Sony MXP3036 and the lighted channel on/ mute buttons on the console switch completely silently. If you have one channel up and all the rest off then hitting two buttons at the same time will turn off one and engage the other.
You can switch within milli-seconds and really compare. I find with this method you can really hear the subtle differences between microphones that are very close sounding to each other.
It takes a good amount of time to get the levels balanced even with the P&G faders. I tried this once with a Pro-tools controller and couldn't get the resolution I was use to getting with analogue P&G faders.
If one source is even slightly louder than the other it often will be the one you pick out as sounding better. I don't really call the Vintage King video a true shootout. For, example the Bock sounded a bit better than the Tele but the Bock seemed to be louder to my old ears.
All you have to do is move a few milliametres of the microphone and the sound will change. I also disagree with the notion that Cardidod is good enough for vocals.
Now, most of the time I use Cardiod but put the microphone in OMNI and some good gobos around the microphone and you get no proximity effect plus a microphone can handle 6db more level in OMNI.
Most of the Beatle vocals were cut in OMNI I suspect because the room sounded so great. I will ask Ken Scott if I see him at NAMM. Ken bought some of microphones for his recording College in London.
I thought the SOYU popped too much on just a short spoken word to be trusted on a recording without a HD pop filter. Maybe, it would fair better if were hung and angle back to let the blast of air pass under the capsule.
I am not a bit fan of bottle microphones either for that reason as you have such a short distance between the grill and capsule. I probably would never build or use one even if they sounded better than any other microphone.
They just remind me of Hitler spewing Mein Kampf while the U47 shape reminds me of John Lennon singing "Give Peace a Chance" but that's just my "child of the 60's" sensibilities.
This has nothing to do with audio quality but KARMA is very important to me.
Lynn also did and interesting comparison between my CM87 and his U87AI. He was quite impressed how close it was for 1/10th the price and wrote about it in one of his posts.
He had a great Forum much more like RealGearOnline than Gearslutz.
I am glad RGO has come along to fill in the gap.
Cheers, Dave
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Post by kcatthedog on May 3, 2017 19:46:02 GMT -6
I know someone who has level matched all these samples apparent lay there was a 6 db swing across all the samples ?
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Post by guitfiddler on May 3, 2017 19:51:06 GMT -6
Two things that always irked me about any microphone listening test is(drum roll/cymbal crash) what preamp did they use? And Are they level balanced. I haven't watched the video, but I remember Lynn with his 3d Audio forum. I remember it well, just after the internet started...lol. JK. That isn't a shot at Lynn, but a shot at myself...lol. Super nice guy.
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Post by drsax on May 3, 2017 20:46:46 GMT -6
Great shootout. One thing is clear to me and is confirmed by my years in the studio is that although there are a lot of great sounding mics here - and many inexpensive ones that deliver above their price point, to get that elusive detail you gotta spend some dough. The Chandler REDD, and the high end Bock and a couple others demonstrate that clearly. It may not be worth the extra $$$ to many - but I am continuing to save my pennies for the Chandler. Love it. So much detail without sounding harsh or sibilant. I'd love to have the Bock in my arsenal as well.
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Post by guitfiddler on May 3, 2017 20:48:47 GMT -6
The Bock is a pleaser, and a satisfier. Is that even a word?
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Post by Quint on May 4, 2017 0:55:25 GMT -6
I should comment that in my experience the biggest single cause of audio degradation is analog cabling. The original location for a mike preamp was right inside a condenser mike. The mike preamp as we know it was designed for ribbon microphones. This is why I believe audio over ip is the future as people figure out that it sounds better. "Audio over ip" IP?
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