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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2017 6:18:09 GMT -6
How do you deal with those know-it-all engineers that just "make suggestions" about your work?
Example 1:
I recently did a FOH/monitors/multitrack and TV mix gig with lots of bands involved.
TV mix was just a headphones mix for camera guys and producer in a van so it was not being recorded but that TV audio engineer were always giving silly directions like:
- vocal 2dB up, 10 seconds later...
- vocal 2dB down, sorry
- 2dB at 3kHz on ribbon mic guitar amp
- just raise 2 milimeters on vocals
- try to make bass more rounded, it'd fit better in the song
- and so on...
At a certain point I decided to just say "ok" to his directions but not following them because he was just driving me nuts. At the end of the concert he told me "hey, now it sounds great, thanks for following my directions". Everybody else laugh because they knew I was not following him.
I must say he was listening this mix on cans in a TV van with 6 people on intercoms, speakers and screaming and neither producer nor camera guys complained about my mix. They even were very happy with my mix.
Example 2:
Today got into the studio and was introduced a new engineer who just started working here.
I opened an opera project I've been working on for the last two weeks. Just played some audio to get an idea and started to "make suggestions" like:
- don't you know you can EQ reverb return?
- you should take care of microdynamics, I can show you how
- that violin needs some body
- voices don't sound good, you should boost some 200Hz and cut 3kHz, half a dB should work
- blah blah blah...
__________________________
I've been working on live sound, studio and broadcast for almost 20 years and I've learned lots of thing but one of the most important for me is:
"Don't step on everyone else's job".
I wouldn't tell a light guy "hey those lights should be green"
If I'm not doing sound in a gig I won't tell the sound guy how to do his job. I'd make a suggestion ONLY if get asked and this ONLY happen if we are friends.
I have my opinions and preferences about how should a record/gig/movie sound but I won't tell the guy who is getting paid for that.
__________________________
So how do you deal with know-it-all people?
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Post by EmRR on Apr 4, 2017 6:22:58 GMT -6
Those people usually don't get asked back by the producer, if the producer does their job. But yeah, ignoring and pretending to agree is often the easiest path if someone higher up won't shut them down. Horrible case of ignored hierarchy.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 4, 2017 7:19:54 GMT -6
I run sound for a lot of gigs at a single venue. Some bands have their own sound guys and they come in and mess with my house graphics. These eq's are set with stupid looking cuts and curves, but are set that way for a reason. I tell them that, they blow me off thinking I'm a tool, then they have issues all night. Can't get the vocals to cut through the mix because they cranked the low end on the graphics and the room is totally booming out. Or they boosted some top bands that were notched and now they're fighting feedback all night.
It's best to just be agreeable and run things the way you think they should be.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2017 7:37:11 GMT -6
I run sound for a lot of gigs at a single venue. Some bands have their own sound guys and they come in and mess with my house graphics. These eq's are set with stupid looking cuts and curves, but are set that way for a reason. I tell them that, they blow me off thinking I'm a tool, then they have issues all night. Can't get the vocals to cut through the mix because they cranked the low end on the graphics and the room is totally booming out. Or they boosted some top bands that were notched and now they're fighting feedback all night. It's best to just be agreeable and run things the way you think they should be. This! When I run sound in a venue I didn't work before I just leave things as they are and ask local sound guy what are the usual issues, tips and tricks. Is just a matter of respect for the guy who works every single day there and I would feel great if someone follows my tips and recomendations only if he/she asks. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2017 7:43:05 GMT -6
Those people usually don't get asked back by the producer, if the producer does their job. But yeah, ignoring and pretending to agree is often the easiest path if someone higher up won't shut them down. Horrible case of ignored hierarchy. You know it's hard to ignore this kind of people or just fake a smile to shut them up. You can spot my fake smile miles away  |
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 4, 2017 8:45:28 GMT -6
It's tough...it's also tough to let something go when you know it's right. It's one of the reasons I don't like to have people sit with me while I mix.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2017 10:58:53 GMT -6
It's tough...it's also tough to let something go when you know it's right. It's one of the reasons I don't like to have people sit with me while I mix. I also prefer to be on my own while mixing but I find encouraging and challenging being accompanied by a friend (usually audio guy) who knows how to be respectful and tries to get the best sounding mix, not just telling you are not good enough. 4 ears listen more than 2 and having a second opinion may open your eyes on details you missed or vicecersa, focus your attention on the big picture and leaving micro details away |
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Post by swurveman on Apr 4, 2017 16:47:58 GMT -6
I loved how you ignored the TV producer.
If I were you and the new engineer started gabbing, I'd probably say," You're the new guy. So shut the fuck up."
Glad I run my own show. That shit would drive me crazy.
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Post by EmRR on Apr 4, 2017 19:26:04 GMT -6
"When you shut up long enough to hear anything that's happening, I might listen to what you have to say".
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2017 23:31:12 GMT -6
I loved how you ignored the TV producer. If I were you and the new engineer started gabbing, I'd probably say," You're the new guy. So shut the fuck up." Glad I run my own show. That shit would drive me crazy. I'm afraid a war would start and I don't want to shot first  I just prefer to wait and see what happens with this guy. If this is his daily behaviour I can make him fired in a blink...while this happens (because it will) I don't want him with me while working |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2017 23:35:14 GMT -6
"When you shut up long enough to hear anything that's happening, I might listen to what you have to say". Amen! Did you guys deal with know-it-all people? I discovered that new race of musicians/engineers who think they are Mozart/Massenburg and it's really hard to keep disrance without looking uncomfortable. This would mess everyone's mood for recording/gig. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 5, 2017 8:06:15 GMT -6
I'm from NYC. Here, we'll bend over backwards to help someone out, even strangers, but we don't suffer fools either. It takes some discipline to stop a know-it-all jerk from getting under your skin, but if it's crucial to my own work or something I'm responsible for, the work comes first, regardless of the outcome of calmly putting that guy in his place and moving on.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 5, 2017 8:18:25 GMT -6
Here's a example of mine from way back. I was producing a record for a friend who hired a wonderful singer named Ken Prymus. Ken was the star of the Wiz on Broadway at that time. My friend had hired an arranger and a string section comprised of various members of the best NYC orchestras. It was a small group, and we overdubbed a few parts to get a bigger sound. One guy sounded flat to me. I mentioned it in a casual and friendly way, yet nothing changed. I asked him to try again, and again.
I was getting that roll-eyes look from him, so finally, I left the booth, went inside to talk to this guy who by now had smoke coming out of his ears. I basically told him, I'm sorry, but you're still flat and it's unacceptable. 10-15 more takes and I got what I wanted, but certainly didn't make a new friend that day.
Later, after the session, my friend who was the writer/exec. producer told me on the side that the player in question had switched from viola to violin, and sometimes players have issues making the transition. I said, well, I don't care if he's the first violin with the NY Philahrmonic, flat is flat, and I'm not accepting it. He said, "that's why I hired you".
So, I guess the motto is, do your best to be reasonable and polite, but stand your ground if you must, regardless of the fallout.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2017 22:50:25 GMT -6
So, I guess the motto is, do your best to be reasonable and polite, but stand your ground if you must, regardless of the fallout. This! I'd not tell no one "shut up" or "get out of here" but making them know my opinion is a must. You acted as a real producer. Great! |
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Post by winetree on Apr 5, 2017 23:42:24 GMT -6
In the past I haven't run across to many know-it-all engineers only the ones that really knew it all.
But one of my pet peeves were the times when the girlfriends of the band would sit in the back of the control room and talk loudly. It was mostly about Hair, nails and shopping.
After a while, I'd turn around and ask them to leave, saying "I'm being paid to listen and it's hard to hear over your conversation. If you want to talk please go out to the lounge".
They'd giggle and say they would stop talking and be quiet.
That would last for a minute or two and they'd start back up again. After two or three more requests they'd leave to the lounge.
Now I suggest to potential clients to leave friends, family, girlfriends, and groupies, at home, because in the studio they only get bored and cause a distraction.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2017 5:49:33 GMT -6
In the past I haven't run across to many know-it-all engineers only the ones that really knew it all. But one of my pet peeves were the times when the girlfriends of the band would sit in the back of the control room and talk loudly. It was mostly about Hair, nails and shopping. After a while, I'd turn around and ask them to leave, saying "I'm being paid to listen and it's hard to hear over your conversation. If you want to talk please go out to the lounge". They'd giggle and say they would stop talking and be quiet. That would last for a minute or two and they'd start back up again. After two or three more requests they'd leave to the lounge. Now I suggest to potential clients to leave friends, family, girlfriends, and groupies, at home, because in the studio they only get bored and cause a distraction. This is a must! No one involved in the project (musician, producer, engineer, manager, etc) should not step into the studio. Or maybe you can sit there but you'll be asked to leave at first noise. |
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Post by Tbone81 on Apr 6, 2017 9:36:23 GMT -6
First of all, this is the greatest thread ever. Here I thought I was the only one who had this problem. For about 6-7 years I was doing a lot of live sound, maybe 4+ gigs a week. I would constantly run into this. I started out as polite, I'd smile, turn a knob that does nothing, and say "tell me when", until the person was happy. Eventually I started being a real smart add though, lol.
Here's just one story:
I'm doing sound at a small club (300 capacity). There's a loud rock band playing, guitar player has a Marshall half stack. The guitar amp was loud enough that I didn't mic it. It filled the room nicely and it was already bleeding into the other mics.
So some engineer I've never met comes up to me, wasted drunk and slurring, and really aggressively says "hey man, you should turn down 2k on that guitar about 4db".
I look him in the eye and say "How about I do nothing and you get out of my face." Shocked, he says, " hey man, I'm just trying to help you. I know what I'm talking about, do your job and turn down 2k in that guitar."
Me - "F@&k you, if you don't get out of this booth I'm going to have the bouncers drag you out of the club by your hair".
Him - "just turn down the 2k. it'll sound better"
Me - "there's no f$@king mic on that guitar you a$$, so tell me how I'm supposed to do that? Now get out of my face, and also...f$&k you".
The look on his drunken face was priceless, he looked at the stage, saw the amp, but in his drunken stupor still couldn't realize that there was no mic on the amp. He was just a confused, stumbling mess. He kept objecting so I just signaled for the bouncer and they kicked him out.
That was the worst exchange I ever had but it felt really good watching him get escorted out lol.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 6, 2017 9:57:55 GMT -6
First of all, this is the greatest thread ever. Here I thought I was the only one who had this problem. For about 6-7 years I was doing a lot of live sound, maybe 4+ gigs a week. I would constantly run into this. I started out as polite, I'd smile, turn a knob that does nothing, and say "tell me when", until the person was happy. Eventually I started being a real smart add though, lol. Here's just one story: I'm doing sound at a small club (300 capacity). There's a loud rock band playing, guitar player has a Marshall half stack. The guitar amp was loud enough that I didn't mic it. It filled the room nicely and it was already bleeding into the other mics. So some engineer I've never met comes up to me, wasted drunk and slurring, and really aggressively says "hey man, you should turn down 2k on that guitar about 4db". I look him in the eye and say "How about I do nothing and you get out of my face." Shocked, he says, " hey man, I'm just trying to help you. I know what I'm talking about, do your job and turn down 2k in that guitar." Me - "F@&k you, if you don't get out of this booth I'm going to have the bouncers drag you out of the club by your hair". Him - "just turn down the 2k. it'll sound better" Me - "there's no f$@king mic on that guitar you a$$, so tell me how I'm supposed to do that? Now get out of my face, and also...f$&k you". The look on his drunken face was priceless, he looked at the stage, saw the amp, but in his drunken stupor still couldn't realize that there was no mic on the amp. He was just a confused, stumbling mess. He kept objecting so I just signaled for the bouncer and they kicked him out. That was the worst exchange I ever had but it felt really good watching him get escorted out lol. I've been doing sound at my club for about 6 years now. Mostly blues, some jazz, and a little classic rockish stuff. Nothing super loud or heavy. No openers, just a single act, 2 sets per night. It's crazy how often a band member will tell me from the stage to turn down the guitar in his monitor and I don't have it in at all, he's just blasting himself out with his amp. Or I'll ask the bassist to turn down, he ignores me, then the guitarist is telling me to turn down the bass. "Sorry man, I've already got him muted in the monitors and house, nothing I can do." I had one band in, sort of a country blues band. Really good all-star band that was touring. Sold out show. Guitars are just peeling paint loud (in my 136 capacity room). 3rd song in or so, a guitarist walks off the stage and grabs a seat while the other guitarist is taking a lead. I see my chance and fight through the packed crowd to talk to the guy. "Hey man, guitars are muted in the house and still too loud. Vocals are buried and people have complained, could you guys turn down a little?" "No." "No? Really? I need you to turn down." "I'm not going to turn down." "OK bud, thanks for helping me do my job." *I walk over to the bar and grab a drink* No sense in trying with some of these guys. I don't know how the guys in the big venues with 4-band bills and shitty local bands every night do it. I totally understand why these guys are jaded dicks. I'm super lucky to be at a decent venue that features high quality acts, generally at a reasonable volume. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2017 23:09:52 GMT -6
First of all, this is the greatest thread ever. Here I thought I was the only one who had this problem. For about 6-7 years I was doing a lot of live sound, maybe 4+ gigs a week. I would constantly run into this. I started out as polite, I'd smile, turn a knob that does nothing, and say "tell me when", until the person was happy. Eventually I started being a real smart add though, lol. Here's just one story: I'm doing sound at a small club (300 capacity)... Wow that was a tough situation. Dealing with drunk/on drugs people is a handicap, never know where it'll end up. You did the best in that situation |
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Post by Tbone81 on Apr 7, 2017 10:27:44 GMT -6
Thanks. That wasn't the only time I had someone kicked out, but it was the only time that it related to music lol.
I learned real quick that when people got too roudy or violent because of alcohol and/or drugs I didn't have to be "tough". I could just sit back, enjoy my drink, and watch the bouncers, who loved to fight, handle it. It got to be quit enjoyable actually lol.
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Post by ericn on Apr 8, 2017 23:50:16 GMT -6
It's funny the pro's will keep their mouths shut unless you ask what they think.
The amateurs tell you what to do!
After years of going out for a night of relaxation and being interrupted by some client or somebody else's client ( by the end of the night they were mine) begging for help with something or other it's nice to just go out and have a normal night, but it really sucks paying to see a show!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2017 5:48:31 GMT -6
It's funny the pro's will keep their mouths shut unless you ask what they think. The amateurs tell you what to do! I couldn't be more agree! Last night my girlfriend had a gig with her ukulele combo. They were setting up on stage while I was having a drink. At a certain point during the soundcheck they asked me to put microphones as they should be to sound best. My inmediate answer was "I'm not a sound engineer today, just a groupie. I'm not gonna touch anything but I recommend you to listen the sound guy who is asking you to play a whole song", sound guy heard me, smiled and told: "you are a smart guy". Best FOH? Nope Best sounding combo? Nope Best musicians of the world? Only my girlfriend, of course Just a night with friends and beer The most important thing is knowing where you belong. Last night I belonged to the crowd, was not a worker. |
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Post by Tbone81 on Apr 9, 2017 11:02:43 GMT -6
It's funny the pro's will keep their mouths shut unless you ask what they think. The amateurs tell you what to do! After years of going out for a night of relaxation and being interrupted by some client or somebody else's client ( by the end of the night they were mine) begging for help with something or other it's nice to just go out and have a normal night, but it really sucks paying to see a show! You're right on. I think there's a lot of insecurity that comes into play with complainers and "suggested". My buddy was doing a gig and put up a 57 for a rock singer. The guy tells him, "excuse me, I need a vocal mic, not an instrument mic, get me a 58". My friends response, "If is was good enough for Mick Jager, it's good enough for you!" I was rolling when he told me that. Lol |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2017 16:11:03 GMT -6
It's funny the pro's will keep their mouths shut unless you ask what they think. The amateurs tell you what to do! After years of going out for a night of relaxation and being interrupted by some client or somebody else's client ( by the end of the night they were mine) begging for help with something or other it's nice to just go out and have a normal night, but it really sucks paying to see a show! You're right on. I think there's a lot of insecurity that comes into play with complainers and "suggested". My buddy was doing a gig and put up a 57 for a rock singer. The guy tells him, "excuse me, I need a vocal mic, not an instrument mic, get me a 58". My friends response, "If is was good enough for Mick Jager, it's good enough for you!" I was rolling when he told me that. Lol So I'd sound like an electric guitar if I sing into a 57?? |
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Post by Ward on Apr 10, 2017 10:51:16 GMT -6
You're right on. I think there's a lot of insecurity that comes into play with complainers and "suggested". My buddy was doing a gig and put up a 57 for a rock singer. The guy tells him, "excuse me, I need a vocal mic, not an instrument mic, get me a 58". My friends response, "If is was good enough for Mick Jager, it's good enough for you!" I was rolling when he told me that. Lol So I'd sound like an electric guitar if I sing into a 57?? By that metric, singing into an RE20 either makes you sound like a kick drum, Trombone, or Stevie Wonder. |
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