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Post by noah shain on Dec 20, 2013 13:20:12 GMT -6
Now, this album is PAYING!!! Good money. I'll do 10 revisions in this scenario all day. Sign me up. Right?!?! Me too...and I do. It does, however, force a bit of a perspective shift. It changes my "one sentence", ya know? |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Dec 20, 2013 13:58:44 GMT -6
My main mixing gig is a live sound gig. This also requires a different perspective. There is a fine line that you have to balance to keep the artist happy and getting the best sound to the ears of the audience. The room that I mix in has a bit of a strange setup with the mains over the front and sides of the stage, aimed down towards the people. Because of the positioning, the artist ends up hearing a strange combination of stage volume, stage monitors (mostly just vocals), and mains.
Often, artists don't want to hear their guitar coming through the mains, so they'll ask me to turn it down. If I turn the guitar down, the blaring drummer or keys player will drown him out in the house. If I don't turn it down, the guitarist might berate me from the stage. It's really amusing how unprofessional some professionals are. You end up straddling this line fairly often and only get one shot to make it right so you do what you can to keep the peace and the balance.
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Post by jazznoise on Dec 21, 2013 2:32:17 GMT -6
Reverb is always contentious. Sometimes best to go without, or near without, for rough mixes. Avoids the criticism. Working with a lot of indie rock bands lately.. Every time I do a rough mix.. "you gonna put some reverb on that, right?" Second rough mix with what I think is an appropriate amount of reverb... Them: "Hey, we want some reverb on that, can you put reverb on that?" Me: "Uhh, there IS reverb on that..(solo the reverb to show it's dripping with reverb..)" Them: "oh yeah, that sounds good. Can you make it sound like that?" Me: "But.. that's JUST the reverb you hear.." Them: "Yeah, that's how we envisioned it sounding like, like a big wall of sound!!!" Me: Facepalm.. "Oh, ok, well.. Lets keep going on the recording and we'll work on this later.." Me: Goes to the "bathroom" but instead gets a shot of bourbon.. or three. *Release said Reverb Bus as album* *Phone Rings* "What the hell man we just heard our album on the radio it sounds really washed out compared to others we said we panted punchy and also loud what the fuck man I'm gonna call my mom she's a lawyer braw." *Start bringing guns to knife fights* There is literally no winning with some people. If someone asks for loads of reverb cause it be stylin' I tend to remind them that in 6 months it won't be stylin'. If they really want to sound that way, then fine. I also think gated reverb sounds tacky - again, you're just at the point where mentioning how heavy reliance on pastiche has its own problems. But that said, it's rare I don't mix what I record so we're usually talking this out before I've even set up a mic. |
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Post by Guitar on Dec 27, 2013 2:10:50 GMT -6
"Make it sound good." That's pretty basic and to the point, right?
Maybe more accurately, "make it sound really good."
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Post by popmann on Dec 27, 2013 14:35:17 GMT -6
"Make it sound good." That's pretty basic and to the point, right? Maybe more accurately, "make it sound really good." That is sometimes an unrealistic expectation depending on an individual's reference is for "good". I'd agree if we change it to "the best it can". |
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Post by kevinnyc on Dec 29, 2013 10:24:15 GMT -6
What I've learned is that I really don't like doing it at all. I got to a point where I'd only do it to fund more gear purchases but I don't even want to do that any more....
Recently I agreed to record a girlfriend of a guy I'm in a band with....she has a band in the same genre as her boyfriend and they have a nice sounding space in their house to record in....
Long story short.....the musicianship was no where near my minimum standards....
In addition to singing, the bandleader plays acoustic guitar....badly.
I spent the day tracking everything live as was the plan and did everything I could to create the most comfortable environment for the best takes possible.
I brought the tracks home and did my best to mix around the severe limitations of the musicians involved....
Sent out rough mixes which received resounding thumbs down, largely because I tucked the acoustic guitar deep into the mix for obvious reasons....
They came over to my place and worked to get a balance they liked. The result for me is that the tracks are unlistenable.....and I'd rather be anywhere else than have to continue to listen to them/work on them...
No joke, I'd rather be digging ditches. No amount of money would change that feeling.
I have friends who are among the top engineer/producers in the world who I remember from my days of studio managing would spend 18 hour days with tracks that would make me want to go on an axe murdering spree...
They are wildly successful and God bless them but I could not subject myself to that, no matter the financial reward or popular adulation.
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Post by Guitar on Dec 29, 2013 14:18:18 GMT -6
oh man, I 've been there, man
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Post by svart on Dec 30, 2013 8:44:13 GMT -6
What I've learned is that I really don't like doing it at all. I got to a point where I'd only do it to fund more gear purchases but I don't even want to do that any more.... Recently I agreed to record a girlfriend of a guy I'm in a band with....she has a band in the same genre as her boyfriend and they have a nice sounding space in their house to record in.... Long story short.....the musicianship was no where near my minimum standards.... In addition to singing, the bandleader plays acoustic guitar....badly. I spent the day tracking everything live as was the plan and did everything I could to create the most comfortable environment for the best takes possible. I brought the tracks home and did my best to mix around the severe limitations of the musicians involved.... Sent out rough mixes which received resounding thumbs down, largely because I tucked the acoustic guitar deep into the mix for obvious reasons.... They came over to my place and worked to get a balance they liked. The result for me is that the tracks are unlistenable.....and I'd rather be anywhere else than have to continue to listen to them/work on them... No joke, I'd rather be digging ditches. No amount of money would change that feeling. I have friends who are among the top engineer/producers in the world who I remember from my days of studio managing would spend 18 hour days with tracks that would make me want to go on an axe murdering spree... They are wildly successful and God bless them but I could not subject myself to that, no matter the financial reward or popular adulation. Been there and actually re-tracked things myself or hired someone else to do it when it came down to it. Sometimes I might even tell the band I'm doing it... |
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Post by kevinnyc on Dec 30, 2013 10:32:42 GMT -6
In this case it was basically a favor for a fellow band mate and everything was cut live in a living room with lots of bleed.... My main goal after trying my damnedest to mix around the ugliness was to just get it out the door so I wouldn't have to listen to it anymore. It often amazes me how other people hear things...what was unlistenable to me was perfectly fine to them.... Even if they had money though I don't think I'd be doing them any favors though if I re-tracked.... Within reason I like the musicians I play with/record to be able to pull it off live.... I realize I'm in the extreme minority though  |
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Post by kevinnyc on Dec 30, 2013 10:35:59 GMT -6
If they're not cutting it and they can hear it I can send them back to the woodshed and they can put in the work to get it right....
If they're not cutting it and can't hear it? Kill me please.
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Post by noah shain on Dec 30, 2013 10:41:39 GMT -6
If they're not cutting it and they can hear it I can send them back to the woodshed and they can put in the work to get it right.... If they're not cutting it and can't hear it? Kill me please. I've been through this on major label pop albums/EPs. I've recorded an A&R man re-cutting the artists guitar parts...a bar or less at a time! Like, in tiny little phrases to accommodate his own performance shortcomings. Insanity. |
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Post by svart on Dec 30, 2013 10:50:33 GMT -6
I've done that recently.. Recording guitars a few bars at a time and splicing. They fret(no pun) and worry about how they play each note but they can't hear that they've picked the string completely differently and you can hear the differences in each chunk. But that's how they are and no amount of coaching will change that in the time they have to record.
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Post by kevinnyc on Dec 30, 2013 16:38:51 GMT -6
You gentlemen have the patience of saints....
I can't muster the energy to pretend it isn't as ridiculous as it is...
As an artist I'd be humiliated if my A&R guy (many of whom may have good ears/instincts but dubious actual musical skills) were re-cutting my tracks....ouch.
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Post by svart on Dec 31, 2013 7:49:08 GMT -6
You gentlemen have the patience of saints.... I can't muster the energy to pretend it isn't as ridiculous as it is... As an artist I'd be humiliated if my A&R guy (many of whom may have good ears/instincts but dubious actual musical skills) were re-cutting my tracks....ouch. But that's the recording industry, making things sound like more than they really are (by any means necessary). It gets done ALL the time. |
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Post by kevinnyc on Dec 31, 2013 9:01:44 GMT -6
Clearly. And I'm all for using many/most of those techniques in pursuit of that aim.....but there's a personal limit for me when things are artificially enhanced to the point of the "artist's" involvement becoming almost irrelevant.
We're left with grid aligned, auto-tuned, melodyned tracks with a model out front with a couple of dance moves....
Not the scenario I choose to be involved with.....at any price.
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Post by noah shain on Dec 31, 2013 9:22:22 GMT -6
Clearly. And I'm all for using many/most of those techniques in pursuit of that aim.....but there's a personal limit for me when things are artificially enhanced to the point of the "artist's" involvement becoming almost irrelevant. We're left with grid aligned, auto-tuned, melodyned tracks with a model out front with a couple of dance moves.... Not the scenario I choose to be involved with.....at any price. I get it man, I truly do. It does irk me on some level but it ain't no big deal. Nobody's getting hurt. It's show business after all. It's always been a hoax. The hardest part of it is the ego stroking. I'd still rather do this job than any of the jobs I did before (not that I could even get hired to do them anymore!). That A&R guy is good for $40k+ a year for me...I got mouths to feed brotha. |
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Post by kevinnyc on Dec 31, 2013 10:57:08 GMT -6
Can't and wouldn't want to argue with putting food on the table. We're it all fun and games it wouldn't be a job and it beats putting on a suit and heading into to the corporate office.... Wish I could find a way around my own inability to operate under those conditions.....my life might be easier  |
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Post by noah shain on Dec 31, 2013 10:59:57 GMT -6
Can't and wouldn't want to argue with putting food on the table. We're it all fun and games it wouldn't be a job and it beats putting on a suit and heading into to the corporate office.... Wish I could find a way around my own inability to operate under those conditions.....my life might be easier Have a baby!!! |
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Post by kevinnyc on Dec 31, 2013 11:53:27 GMT -6
Got one getting ready to go to college in a couple of years....believe me, I get it |
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Post by noah shain on Dec 31, 2013 11:56:35 GMT -6
Got one getting ready to go to college in a couple of years....believe me, I get it Oops!! Yes you do!!! |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 2, 2014 10:41:51 GMT -6
Clearly. And I'm all for using many/most of those techniques in pursuit of that aim.....but there's a personal limit for me when things are artificially enhanced to the point of the "artist's" involvement becoming almost irrelevant. We're left with grid aligned, auto-tuned, melodyned tracks with a model out front with a couple of dance moves.... Not the scenario I choose to be involved with.....at any price. I get it man, I truly do. It does irk me on some level but it ain't no big deal. Nobody's getting hurt. It's show business after all. It's always been a hoax. The hardest part of it is the ego stroking. I'd still rather do this job than any of the jobs I did before (not that I could even get hired to do them anymore!). That A&R guy is good for $40k+ a year for me...I got mouths to feed brotha. Honestly, I've got to get better at the ass kissing. I've had a writing deal for 12 years now and the one thing that has become completely obvious to me is that this business - even more than in the past - is less about the music and more about who you know and who you blow. I always said I wanted my music to do the talking, but the truth is: the music really doesn't matter as much. At least in Country. I mean, turn on the radio... |
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Post by popmann on Jan 2, 2014 11:41:30 GMT -6
Welcome to the cynical side.  Don Henley wrote "How Bad Do You Want It" decades ago..."you would walk on your lips through busted glass....if you could get next to that...(and) you think this is love...but you don't know what it means" -anyway, the song, while not literally about the scenario we find ourselves in, that line particularly echoes in my head when I hear what's being put out now. But, the question becomes, what do you do with this? even if you kiss the right ass, you're begging to be in a bad place. You're begging to get the job of target writing songs (utterly subject to A&R edits) for people who can sort of carry a tune while sucking the chrome off a trailer hitch--and then there's the FEMALE artists! Ha...the days of people writing good songs and other people taking them to another level as gifted performers is over. Nashville was simply able to keep that bubble intact for longer than the rest of the industry. The question is where do we go from here. There's no real debate what's happened. The debate needs to be, how do we as artists...and service providers to artists move forward. |
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Post by svart on Jan 2, 2014 12:03:22 GMT -6
I think moving forward is an easy decision. It's the implementation that is going to be the hard part.
You know how we move forward? By continuing to do what we do. If people like the product, it will be purchased.
Now, the hard part is the implementation.. Why? Because the old industry, in it's attempt to continue profits, has made deals with devils and has made music a piecemeal commodity. 1$ a song here and there, so that means every song has to be a catchy hit, or else it won't sell, and thus the profits are much more slim. This trickles down and down until it reaches the studios.
And I think everybody knows my feelings on the studio situation. The big ones have mostly died due to huge overhead costs and the fall of Big Music who were their monetary lifelines.
Second, the mid and lower tier studios have kinda taken over, but for drastically smaller profits.
The project/home studios have really taken off mainly because in this day and age, people feel that they can achieve good results with cheap gear, and feel that buying their own gear is a reasonable option to spending that money on someone who knows how to actually record using good gear. Mainly this has come about due to Ipods and MP3s that decimate the sound to mush so that the span between well-done recordings and noisy crap is not able to be discerned. That and the misplaced pride most artists feel when recording themselves.
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Post by noah shain on Jan 2, 2014 12:08:16 GMT -6
I get it man, I truly do. It does irk me on some level but it ain't no big deal. Nobody's getting hurt. It's show business after all. It's always been a hoax. The hardest part of it is the ego stroking. I'd still rather do this job than any of the jobs I did before (not that I could even get hired to do them anymore!). That A&R guy is good for $40k+ a year for me...I got mouths to feed brotha. Honestly, I've got to get better at the ass kissing. I've had a writing deal for 12 years now and the one thing that has become completely obvious to me is that this business - even more than in the past - is less about the music and more about who you know and who you blow. I always said I wanted my music to do the talking, but the truth is: the music really doesn't matter as much. At least in Country. I mean, turn on the radio... You know, As a mixer I'm still doing good work even though I'm mixing mediocre music. I'm learning and getting paid to practice. I look at it as the big budget crap is paying for the labours of love. I started late in the production end of this game an the guys I aspire to competing with have decades + on me so really I'm just glad to be a mixer working for good $$ inside a small club. If I get a little butt on my lips...NBD. I ain't exactly selling my soul here. Relationships are what fuels EVERY business I've participated in and talent is rare. I'd rather be accommodating and patient and working than unemployed or a hobbyist. That said, when I'm producing I make it part of my mission to protect the band from label influence on their music. But producer is a position of power. From where I sit, Mixer is much more of a service job and a privilege. I'm damn happy to be doing it. That's how I paid for my console and my Retro gear! And my son's braces!! It's more funny in a "chronicles of mixerman" sort of a way than it is painful to the soul. So kiss some ass and get paid and then do what you want. Success provides options... |
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Post by jazznoise on Jan 5, 2014 5:18:32 GMT -6
The project/home studios have really taken off mainly because in this day and age, people feel that they can achieve good results with cheap gear, and feel that buying their own gear is a reasonable option to spending that money on someone who knows how to actually record using good gear. Mainly this has come about due to Ipods and MP3s that decimate the sound to mush so that the span between well-done recordings and noisy crap is not able to be discerned. That and the misplaced pride most artists feel when recording themselves. And the sheer number of cowboys on the scene too. I know many guys with much better gear, spaces and a higher budget who get objectively worse results than what I can do with my portable rig. Not because I'm hot shit - I'm not - but these guys are a joke when it comes to getting the Recording, Mixing and Production processes to gel towards anything goal other than them getting paid and looking good while doing it. Mostly because they're self important douche bags and they put themselves above their clients. And secondly there's such a blood lust that artists are recording songs before they've gigged them - or even know what gigging a song means - because of pressures within the creative community. What you then have is a totally destructive cycle and it's poison in the well, whether the artists are pop based or not. On a side: if you think less-than-audiophile DAC's and Lossy Compression are ruining music, that's totally whack. Gramophones? How lossy can you get!? |
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