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Post by swurveman on Feb 13, 2017 12:34:38 GMT -6
I did my first mid/side recording of an acoustic guitar today as a test.
I found out as others have that - when both the cardiod and figure 8 mics are placed at a position where the neck meets the body - when you duplicate the figure 8 mic in your DAW and phase reverse it the result is a combined image that is shifted to one side. And yes, I checked if the duplicated figure 8 track nulled with the original track. It did.
When I positioned the mics at the sound hole, after duplicating the figure 8 and phase reversing the duplicate, the combined image was centered.
So, I was wondering if there's any way of getting around the shifted image when placing the mic where the body meets the neck.
Thanks to anybody with experience with this.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2017 13:29:05 GMT -6
I did my first mid/side recording of an acoustic guitar today as a test. I found out as others have that - when both the cardiod and figure 8 mics are placed at a position where the neck meets the body - when you duplicate the figure 8 mic in your DAW and phase reverse it the result is a combined image that is shifted to one side. And yes, I checked if the duplicated figure 8 track nulled with the original track. It did. When I positioned the mics at the sound hole, after duplicating the figure 8 and phase reversing the duplicate, the combined image was centered. So, I was wondering if there's any way of getting around the shifted image when placing the mic where the body meets the neck. Thanks to anybody with experience with this. Been looking into this myself - thought this Bob Clearmountain vid was good, although may be nothing new to you? |
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Post by EmRR on Feb 13, 2017 13:45:00 GMT -6
greater distance or consider up/down instead of left/right..
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Post by swurveman on Feb 13, 2017 14:14:38 GMT -6
Been looking into this myself - thought this Bob Clearmountain vid was good, although may be nothing new to you? EDIT: Yeah, I did it exactly like that inside the DAW. I notice that he does have one side a bit louder in his stereo bus. So, perhaps it's common and accepted. Here's the sound I got with mics on a plane directly at the guitar with the mid mic lloking just to the right of the sound hole. I am about 6 inches from the guitar for warmth and proximity, which probably makes the image problem worse: https%3A//soundcloud.com/songflowerrecording/acu-tests-feb-13-2017 |
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Post by swurveman on Feb 13, 2017 14:21:31 GMT -6
greater distance or consider up/down instead of left/right.. Wouldn't putting the figure 8 up/down defeat the purpose of a wide stereo image? EDIT: On secon look I noted Clearmountain has a bit of a imbalance as well. So, maybe it's accepted? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2017 14:38:19 GMT -6
I wonder if he's got them aimed at the top left shoulder of the guitar. I know some aim at the bottom left shoulder. When I was trying this I swear the back of my fig 8 ribbon was slightly darker than the front. Got a better ribbon coming Wednesday so will have another go.
There does seem a lot of proximity effect on the clip you posted - could it be something to do with the reflection from the guitar body?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2017 14:41:06 GMT -6
greater distance or consider up/down instead of left/right.. Like to try this. How do you set the up / down position. Is the fig 8 above the cardoid still? |
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Post by EmRR on Feb 13, 2017 14:41:12 GMT -6
If you close your eyes and sit in front of a guitarist you get a lopsided sonic image. The body of the guitar is always on one side (because it's on one side!), unless you are 1) far enough away, or 2) shift to an intermediate angle. You have to listen for that intermediate angle that gives the most centered sound. I find this true with ANY stereo technique aimed at the body/neck joint. Angle with body further away and neck closer sometimes helps center, as it shifts the body more towards the middle of the pic.
I'm on laptop speakers, it still sounds tonally lopsided even there. I think it's probable that Bob doesn't have a ton of side image in the blend, but I haven't watched or listened to the whole thing. He may be tossing the lows from the side image to keep it more centered. Etc.
Why would up/down defeat a wide image? It rearranges whether you sense L/R hand relationship, but not ambient width. It swaps for a more distant set of problems, floor versus ceiling, while centering the instrument body. Sometimes it is the better solution.
Try a second stereo pair further out, and balance the close to the far through placement. Try keeping gain matched rather than shifting image with volume, it'll almost always work better in helping you find the sweet spot(s).
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Post by EmRR on Feb 13, 2017 14:42:19 GMT -6
greater distance or consider up/down instead of left/right.. Like to try this. How do you set the up / down position. Is the fig 8 above the cardoid still? Rotate the whole thing 90 degrees. The S mic needs to be unimpeded. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2017 14:45:29 GMT -6
Thanks will give it a go.
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Post by swurveman on Feb 13, 2017 14:48:05 GMT -6
If you close your eyes and sit in front of a guitarist you get a lopsided sonic image. The body of the guitar is always on one side (because it's on one side!), unless you are 1) far enough away, or 2) shift to an intermediate angle. You have to listen for that intermediate angle that gives the most centered sound. I find this true with ANY stereo technique aimed at the body/neck joint. Angle with body further away and neck closer sometimes helps center, as it shifts the body more towards the middle of the pic. I'm on laptop speakers, it still sounds tonally lopsided even there. I think it's probable that Bob doesn't have a ton of side image in the blend, but I haven't watched or listened to the whole thing. He may be tossing the lows from the side image to keep it more centered. Etc. Why would up/down defeat a wide image? It rearranges whether you sense L/R hand relationship, but not ambient width. It swaps for a more distant set of problems, floor versus ceiling, while centering the instrument body. Sometimes it is the better solution. Try a second stereo pair further out, and balance the close to the far through placement. Try keeping gain matched rather than shifting image with volume, it'll almost always work better in helping you find the sweet spot(s). Thanks for your advice. I have an acoustic guitar recording session coming up. So, I'll be able to sit in front of the player and listen for the intermediate angle. I'll also do some tests alone with the mics farther away. I'll look at EQ as well on what I have. |
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Post by swurveman on Feb 13, 2017 14:53:16 GMT -6
I wonder if he's got them aimed at the top left shoulder of the guitar. I know some aim at the bottom left shoulder. When I was trying this I swear the back of my fig 8 ribbon was slightly darker than the front. Got a better ribbon coming Wednesday so will have another go. There does seem a lot of proximity effect on the clip you posted - could it be something to do with the reflection from the guitar body? EmRR had good advice about aim and finding the intermediate angle that gives the most centered sound . I think the proximity is just that I was so close. Too close. |
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